Gloomstalker - Multi or Single?

[WeenerTuck813]

Help me decide...

Gloomstalker SINGLE class will get:

Stalker's Flurry
At 11th level, you learn to attack with such unexpected speed that you can turn a miss into another strike. Once on each of your turns when you miss with a weapon attack, you can make another weapon attack as part of the same action.

*SINCE i am going to get Sharpshooter Feat (-5 attack//+10 Damage) that level 11 Gloomstalker ability looks super tasty and may almost completely negate the -5 attack.

Gloomstalker MULTI Class 8/4 Gloomstalker/Assassin

This will get me:

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

*SINCE Gloomstalker is INVISIBLE in the dark, that Surprise round isn't too hard to get.

ALSO - level 4 rogue will net me Sneak Attack at 2d6


Curious about some of your thoughts. The Sharpshooter/Stalker's Fury seems really good together, but is it better than Assassinate+2d6 Sneak attack?

Initially i brushed off the multi class plan but this board convinced me to look into it more and im on the fence now.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

Originally posted by branmakmuffin:

In PnP, Assassin is indeed a crappy sub class. Arguably the worst Rogue sub class. Rogue is a pretty weak base class and Assassin adds almost nothing to it.

100% agree

A small dip, like 4 levels, for the 2d6 sneak attack die and the level 3 Turn 1 Advantage/Auto Crit seem nice though. But im not sure whether they're worth missing the extra-attack-on-miss Gloomstalker gets at 11, especially when im planning on taking sharpshooter feat and eating that -5 attack.

BUT, rogue is also giving me cunning action, expertise, etc.

Im torn

-5 on sharpshooter isn't as big a deal for gloomstalkers even at lvl 3. They're getting +2 from archery fighting style, and in more cases than not, going to have advantage on attacks.

I'd rather have uncanny dodge, evasion, and more sneak attack damage over Gloomstalker's lvl 11 extra attack on miss, though I'm not sure how Larian might change the ranger's otherwise uninteresting bass class abilities.

[Tomatokek]

I'm going Ass/Gloom simply because I want to keep Astinion in my party and rogues seem to suck as a single class so give him that gloomstalker boost.

[branmakmuffin]

There are some classes that aren't all that great as single class (in my opinion) but work well in multi-class builds. Assassin with Gloomstalker is one of them. Not sure I'd call 4 levels in Gloomstalker (or any class) in a game that goes to 12 a "small dip," though. And if I'm going to 4, I'm going to 5 for two attacks.

For me, if I'm gonna make a Gloomstalker/Assassin, it's either 3 levels of GS, or 5.

[MeldinX2]

Originally posted by branmakmuffin:

There are some classes that aren't all that great as single class (in my opinion) but work well in multi-class builds. Assassin with Gloomstalker is one of them. Not sure I'd call 4 levels in Gloomstalker (or any class) in a game that goes to 12 a "small dip," though. And if I'm going to 4, I'm going to 5 for two attacks.

For me, if I'm gonna make a Gloomstalker/Assassin, it's either 3 levels of GS, or 5.

For sure there is no reason to skip out on extra attack. And Gloomstalker gets some good stuff to level 5 anyway.

[jk2l]

Originally posted by Harukage:

Fighter gets second ASI at lvl 6, so you can get 3 ASI you want so much by multiclassing with it. Also second combat style, action surge, second wind and combat maneuvers if Battle Master. But it is better tailored for melee.
Still the best compo will be 3/3/6 GS/As/BM. Rapier and shield, max DEX with dueling and defensive combat styles. But you are against loosing 1 ASI. So whatever.

+1

i think the 3/3/6 split is good, but i will be more into the archery style than dueling. having long reach to assassinate any target within reach is huge.

also +2 hit is much better than +2 dmg (archery vs dueling) imo

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by branmakmuffin:

There are some classes that aren't all that great as single class (in my opinion) but work well in multi-class builds. Assassin with Gloomstalker is one of them. Not sure I'd call 4 levels in Gloomstalker (or any class) in a game that goes to 12 a "small dip," though. And if I'm going to 4, I'm going to 5 for two attacks.

For me, if I'm gonna make a Gloomstalker/Assassin, it's either 3 levels of GS, or 5.

You read it backwards. It was 4 Assassin, not 4 Gloomstalker

[branmakmuffin]

Originally posted by jk2l:

also +2 hit is much better than +2 dmg (archery vs dueling) imo

Archery style turning the -5 from Sharpshooter into -3 seems like a pretty big deal. That's why Sharpshooter is so much better, in my opinion, that Great Weapon Master. There's no "style" that partially nullifies the -5 to hit from GWM.

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by jk2l:

Originally posted by Harukage:

Fighter gets second ASI at lvl 6, so you can get 3 ASI you want so much by multiclassing with it. Also second combat style, action surge, second wind and combat maneuvers if Battle Master. But it is better tailored for melee.
Still the best compo will be 3/3/6 GS/As/BM. Rapier and shield, max DEX with dueling and defensive combat styles. But you are against loosing 1 ASI. So whatever.

+1

i think the 3/3/6 split is good, but i will be more into the archery style than dueling. having long reach to assassinate any target within reach is huge.

also +2 hit is much better than +2 dmg (archery vs dueling) imo

2 ASI is going to starve you. There’s a lot of really good feats like Sharpshooter and more cases than not you’re going to need ASI to max your stats like Dex.

[branmakmuffin]

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

You read it backwards. It was 4 Assassin, not 4 Gloomstalker

You are correct, I did mis-read it.

[jk2l]

Originally posted by branmakmuffin:

Originally posted by jk2l:

also +2 hit is much better than +2 dmg (archery vs dueling) imo

Archery style turning the -5 from Sharpshooter into -3 seems like a pretty big deal. That's why Sharpshooter is so much better, in my opinion, that Great Weapon Master. There's no "style" that partially nullifies the -5 to hit from GWM.

not only that, as assassin and gloomstalker's bonus is mostly on turn 1. so having higher chance to hit to achieve that bonus is so much more valuable than flat +2 dmg

[jk2l]

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

Originally posted by jk2l:

+1

i think the 3/3/6 split is good, but i will be more into the archery style than dueling. having long reach to assassinate any target within reach is huge.

also +2 hit is much better than +2 dmg (archery vs dueling) imo

2 ASI is going to starve you. There’s a lot of really good feats like Sharpshooter and more cases than not you’re going to need ASI to max your stats like Dex.

i think the feat is overrated here. yes it is quite a good bonus but your class feature is like a feat itself. so you are losing a feat to gain a class feature so that's even out. it is like you picked one feat over the other.

as the assassin/gloomstalker combo is to build around first turn nova damage. sharpshooter is much less of an issue to lost out.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

I know it's not entirely in your question but I was thinking going gloomlock lol become invisible in darkness with devils sight I could cast darkness around me, hopefully they fixed the bug that stops you from firing thru darkness spell with devils sight lol

[Harukage]

With 20 Dex and advantage you will not really miss. Like seriously. I would go with melee if multi with Battle Master. And i am going exactly with DEX for better initiative, so i that means i am using finesse weapons, and that means no two-handing or dual-wielding ( because it sucks ). Dueling that is.
I would go archery on pure GS/As hybrid instead.
Also with Tashas rules for stats missing on one ASI is not that relevant. I would still max out my main stat.
Also you should consider that most of the time classes get their best features at low levels, that is why getting features of another class may often outweight new feat.

[branmakmuffin]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

I know it's not entirely in your question but I was thinking going gloomlock lol become invisible in darkness with devils sight I could cast darkness around me, hopefully they fixed the bug that stops you from firing thru darkness spell with devils sight lol

If you have Devil's Sight and cast Darkness, you don't need Gloomstalker "invisibility." A "Gloomlock" seems like a pointless multi-class mechanically.

[Foolswalkin]

We really don’t know how either will be implemented. I’d hold any ideas we have pretty loosely until then. I would be shocked if assassin was implemented as written in PHB.

4 vs 7 levels of rogue is 2d6 sneak attack of difference. First round, that’s 16d6 worth of damage with autocrits. Later, we can make different claims about more SA vs more rerolling misses, but 16d6 is a lot to try to make up.