Circle of the Moon Druid - Recasting Moonbeam, Call Thunder, Heat metal in Wildshape form isn't working

[Oberon]

Hello, I wanted to post this to see if Larian Studios has addressed if Circle of the Moon Druids are not intended to be able to re-locate/recast (however you want to call this) certain spells that require concentration to maintain like Moonbeam, Call Thunder, Heat Metal, etc... while in a wildshaped form.

I feel like this is a really important aspect to the Circle of the Moon subclass and is what really differentiates it's playing style from the Circle of the Land druid and other traditional casting classes that stay in their human form.

[Mosey]

How, exactly, does one do the somatic portion of a spell without hands or a humanoid body?

Last I checked moonbeam is V,S,M meaning it takes words, motions, and a material.

[Ronin Gamer]

Originally posted by Oberon:

Hello, I wanted to post this to see if Larian Studios has addressed if Circle of the Moon Druids are not intended to be able to re-locate/recast (however you want to call this) certain spells that require concentration to maintain like Moonbeam, Call Thunder, Heat Metal, etc... while in a wildshaped form.

I feel like this is a really important aspect to the Circle of the Moon subclass and is what really differentiates it's playing style from the Circle of the Land druid and other traditional casting classes that stay in their human form.

If what you're suggesting is you want the ability to move around spells in animal form as a moon druid then you aren't asking for something that is important towards what makes a moon druid, what you are asking for is having a benefit that befits the land druid to also apply to moon druids, effectively giving you the extra functionality so you aren't sacrificing something for picking moon druid and getting your forms.
Personally, I don't agree with that idea. Picking a subclass is picking something to specialize in, and as such often requires some degree of sacrifice. If you get more/better forms as a moon druid, it makes sense to me your spell casting ability should suffer some compared to a land druid who's doesn't, but doesn't get your animal form options.

However, if your point is Moon gets to do that while land doesn't get to do that while in animal form, I could MAYBE understand that logic. I still think neither animal form should really be able to do it, but I haven't played a druid in quite a long while so my memory is escaping me on what they can pull off at the moment.

[Oberon]

"If what you're suggesting is you want the ability to move around spells in animal form as a moon druid then you aren't asking for something that is important towards what makes a moon druid, what you are asking for is having a benefit that befits the land druid to also apply to moon druids, effectively giving you the extra functionality so you aren't sacrificing something for picking moon druid and getting your forms."

In 5e, you retain ALL of your class abilities when you wild shape, and are able to benefit from them as long as you can practically do so (Druid-Barbarians can Rage and use Reckless Attack while in a wild shape, for example).

This includes all functions that are a part of any spells you cast; you can attack with spiritual weapon, call lightning bolts, channel sun beams and yes, move your moon beam, all while in wild shape. You just can't *cast* a new spell.

This has been a core mechanic for druids in 5e and has been confirmed by the creators of 5e that this is intended design.

This isn't a feature that is exclusive to Circle of the Moon, All druids that have a concentrated spell active such as Moonbeam, Call lightning, Heat Metal, Spiritual weapon etc.. and then wildshape should be able to relocate or re-trigger the currently concentrated spells attack.

However, where this becomes additionally important to Circle of the Moon is that Circle of the Moon druids have access to additional forms such as Flying Form which would give them the ability to cast a moonbeam, shift to a bird and move. They can then utilize the bird/flying form to get optimal position and re-locate the moon beam on their next term and serve a function as a mobile artillery without breaking their wildshape.

[Yojo0o]

Druids absolutely should be able to manage their Moonbeam or similar while shifted.

[Oberon]

"How, exactly, does one do the somatic portion of a spell without hands or a humanoid body?

Last I checked moonbeam is V,S,M meaning it takes words, motions, and a material."

Great Question and an excellent point! Each of the spells mentioned in this thread for Druids require that they are first in human form to cast the spell initially due to having a V,S,M requirement.

However, after the spell is cast it does not require that you be constantly chanting or maintaining the "V,S,M" requirement; that's just for the initial casting. That is why after satisfying the "V,S,M" requirement of the initial casting you are able to move and perform other actions while the Concentrated Spell is Active. This also means for Druids that you are able to then wildshape and maintain "Concentration."

Concentration for Spells is exactly what it says. Concentrating. Thinking. And thus isn't disrupted by being in a a different form for druids. This means that while wildshaped Druids that move the moonbeam or area of another spell are not "Casting a spell" but simply managing the already casted spell per the rules of 5e.

This also applies to all other casters in other situations such as being in a spell that puts them in a zone of silence. Essentially any caster that has already casted a spell that requires concentration, if they are then put into a zone of silence, their concentrated spell will be unaffected and they will be able to maneuver the concentrated spell even while remaining in the zone of silence.

[Mosey]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Druids absolutely should be able to manage their Moonbeam or similar while shifted.

I don't think they should. The spell has prerequisites that you can't meet while shape shifted.

This spell has somatic components and material components you can not access while shifted.

Your tabletop DM can perhaps rule that spells already active can still be controlled via concentration, but that is not specified in the spell. It's largely irrelevant, but personally I'd rule that if someone grabs the casting Druid's hands they can't move the spell either. That's just me though, and I recognize that's open to interpretation.

We also can't be sure that Larian intended for us to lose the move moonbeam ability while shape shifted. After all, when you shift back to humanoid we are not granted the ability to move moonbeam again so this seems like a clear bug or an oversight since we should regain control of the spell at that point.

From D&D Beyond: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/moonbeam

COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
* - (several seeds of any moonseed plant and a piece of opalescent feldspar)

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Mosey:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Druids absolutely should be able to manage their Moonbeam or similar while shifted.

I don't think they should. The spell has prerequisites that you can't meet while shape shifted.

This spell has somatic components and material components you can not access while shifted.

Your tabletop DM can perhaps rule that spells already active can still be controlled via concentration, but that is not specified in the spell. It's largely irrelevant, but personally I'd rule that if someone grabs the casting Druid's hands they can't move the spell either. That's just me though, and I recognize that's open to interpretation.

We also can't be sure that Larian intended for us to lose the move moonbeam ability while shape shifted. After all, when you shift back to humanoid we are not granted the ability to move moonbeam again so this seems like a clear bug or an oversight since we should regain control of the spell at that point.

From D&D Beyond: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/moonbeam

COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
* - (several seeds of any moonseed plant and a piece of opalescent feldspar)

You need to do those components to cast a spell, sure, but nowhere in the rules does it suggest that components must be continually used to maintain a spell.

The rules for Wild Shape even specifically enable this:

"You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast."

[Mosey]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

You need to do those components to cast a spell, sure, but nowhere in the rules does it suggest that components must be continually used to maintain a spell.

The rules for Wild Shape even specifically enable this:

"You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast."

Guess that means it probably is a glitch then, which isn't a huge surprise given that granted abilities from spells are glitched for just about all of them. Even some arcane spells have this issue, especially for sorcerers dual-cast.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Druids absolutely should be able to manage their Moonbeam or similar while shifted.

yep...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Mosey:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Druids absolutely should be able to manage their Moonbeam or similar while shifted.

I don't think they should. The spell has prerequisites that you can't meet while shape shifted.

This spell has somatic components and material components you can not access while shifted.

Your tabletop DM can perhaps rule that spells already active can still be controlled via concentration, but that is not specified in the spell. It's largely irrelevant, but personally I'd rule that if someone grabs the casting Druid's hands they can't move the spell either. That's just me though, and I recognize that's open to interpretation.

We also can't be sure that Larian intended for us to lose the move moonbeam ability while shape shifted. After all, when you shift back to humanoid we are not granted the ability to move moonbeam again so this seems like a clear bug or an oversight since we should regain control of the spell at that point.

From D&D Beyond: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/moonbeam

COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
* - (several seeds of any moonseed plant and a piece of opalescent feldspar)

RAW, you are wrong.

Once cast, any "spell actions" can be freely used, even while shapeshifted.

[Dremall]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by Mosey:

I don't think they should. The spell has prerequisites that you can't meet while shape shifted.

This spell has somatic components and material components you can not access while shifted.

Your tabletop DM can perhaps rule that spells already active can still be controlled via concentration, but that is not specified in the spell. It's largely irrelevant, but personally I'd rule that if someone grabs the casting Druid's hands they can't move the spell either. That's just me though, and I recognize that's open to interpretation.

We also can't be sure that Larian intended for us to lose the move moonbeam ability while shape shifted. After all, when you shift back to humanoid we are not granted the ability to move moonbeam again so this seems like a clear bug or an oversight since we should regain control of the spell at that point.

From D&D Beyond: https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/moonbeam

COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
* - (several seeds of any moonseed plant and a piece of opalescent feldspar)

You need to do those components to cast a spell, sure, but nowhere in the rules does it suggest that components must be continually used to maintain a spell.

The rules for Wild Shape even specifically enable this:

"You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast."

The rules are pretty cut and dry on this one. The only requirements left for the druid to meet are that they have either the action, or bonus action to trigger the continuous effect of the spell.

It's a common tactic to cast a major concentration spell and then wildshape into something with a beefy constitution to help keep concentration on the spell.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Dremall:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

You need to do those components to cast a spell, sure, but nowhere in the rules does it suggest that components must be continually used to maintain a spell.

The rules for Wild Shape even specifically enable this:

"You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast."

The rules are pretty cut and dry on this one. The only requirements left for the druid to meet are that they have either the action, or bonus action to trigger the continuous effect of the spell.

It's a common tactic to cast a major concentration spell and then wildshape into something with a beefy constitution to help keep concentration on the spell.

Or to cast Call Lightning and then transform into a Raven to fulfil all your Storm Cauldron fantasies (also, Raven has AC 21 and Blind attack)

⛈🧙‍♀️

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Originally posted by Oberon:

"How, exactly, does one do the somatic portion of a spell without hands or a humanoid body?

Last I checked moonbeam is V,S,M meaning it takes words, motions, and a material."

Great Question and an excellent point! Each of the spells mentioned in this thread for Druids require that they are first in human form to cast the spell initially due to having a V,S,M requirement.

However, after the spell is cast it does not require that you be constantly chanting or maintaining the "V,S,M" requirement; that's just for the initial casting. That is why after satisfying the "V,S,M" requirement of the initial casting you are able to move and perform other actions while the Concentrated Spell is Active. This also means for Druids that you are able to then wildshape and maintain "Concentration."

Concentration for Spells is exactly what it says. Concentrating. Thinking. And thus isn't disrupted by being in a a different form for druids. This means that while wildshaped Druids that move the moonbeam or area of another spell are not "Casting a spell" but simply managing the already casted spell per the rules of 5e.

This also applies to all other casters in other situations such as being in a spell that puts them in a zone of silence. Essentially any caster that has already casted a spell that requires concentration, if they are then put into a zone of silence, their concentrated spell will be unaffected and they will be able to maneuver the concentrated spell even while remaining in the zone of silence.

Well I learned something new today