Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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lucifier Jul 4, 2023 @ 12:55pm
Class Builds
Wondering with the update info on class/races released why we don't see any class builds on the forums.
Are people just waiting for release or due you have a cookie cutter goto build your using.

I havent played tabletop since 2nd/3rd editions so im not to familiar with the PHB rule changes, but from what ive gathered spell classes are not as strong as melee and spells have been watered down.
Im looking to see what others think, Im kinda looking to see if I can still make a super monk build with this new rule set but dont have my hopes to high from some of the rules Ive seen.

Are any of the great builds from back in the days still viable?
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Showing 31-45 of 51 comments
Dremall Jul 4, 2023 @ 6:20pm 
Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:
Really?
I thought it was pretty common knowledge that wizards are a bit lackluster at lower levels.

Fireball helps, but it’s a real limited resource and you have to manage few spell slots early game. They’re squishy, have to rest a lot, and really grow as the level into a top class.

That’s been my impression as I’ve played, anyway. 🤷‍♂️

If you're going all out damage, yeah, then they take a bit to get going. However they can attack a wide variety of stats outside of AC and Dex. Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues tend to suffer with making INT, WIS, and CHA saves regularly.
Originally posted by Foolswalkin:
Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

True, unless it's a Sorlock 😁😉

In the Larianverse, Agonizing+Repelling Blast is top tier level 2 on, as everybody is standing too close to the railing.

Nothing wrong with Wizard that starting with 1 level of Cleric won't fix.

if the objective is to organize classes in a tier list based on how easily they can kill enemies, then any class is top tier just by virtue of putting down a bunch of explosives and then blowing it up to end combat in 1 turn. anyone can do this in the larianverse. you can do a ton of things that no DM would ever allow in a real game, which is why I say none of this realy matters, because anyone and anything are going to be top tier. arguing whose better at winning a fight in 1.5 turns instead of 1 turn doesnt really get to the core issue which is that you actually prep, you're going to slaughter any encounter.

But yes, the absolutely #1 best possible combo in all of DnD is spear warlock because no one is going to even see him to fight back and they'll all be dead before they get close enough to hurt him. Lethargy reduces movement speed, and repelling pushes them back 10 feet. At level 11 you get 3 beams, which means no enemy will ever be able to move from that spot unless you say so.

Warlock also having the darkness+devil sight combo, yet another unbreakable, unbeatable, untouchable combo that is exclusive to warlocks, for the most part.

And given that Warlocks dont have to argue about whether they should be allowed a 3rd short rest, and instead, can just take that rest. Yes. Warlocks are absolutely the top tier, #1, best class in not just BG3, but all of DnD, they are only ever kept in check by a DM that wont tolerate their nonsense. Did I mention they can cast disguise self at will? So they can do anything they want, change their appearance, and get away with it. Warlocks are ridiculously powerful. Literally no other class comes close. They are full casters with the same spell power as any other full caster, except they get d8 hit die like Druids Bards and Clerics, the difference is those 3 classes focus on support and healing, while the Warlock is more focused on PAIN , TERROR, and DESPAIR.


So yeah. If you're putting it in a vacuum and just ask which one class could theoretically steam roll anything, from combat, to social encounters, and everything in between, its the warlock. very specificly built warlock.

Now, normally, people would make some arguments about higher level spells and the limitations of Arcanum. And you'd be right. Except BG3 doesnt go above 12. So it stops right exactly where Warlock remains king and never gets knocked off.




Unless Cleric gets a good Divine Intervention in which case they are top tier and ill hear nothing else about it. Summoning God is a win condition for every encounter.
Pan Darius Cassandra (Banned) Jul 4, 2023 @ 6:53pm 
It's always important to look at things in context.

While a Warlock is a great blaster if built that way, a Sorlock is even better (assuming you can convert Pact slots into Sorc Pts).

But blasting things is not the whole of the game, either in TT or BG3, and the Wizard has been, and always will be, Top Dog. Technically, they aren't quite as good a blaster as either the Sorcerer (with Metamagic) or the Warlock (with Eldritch Blast) and certainly not the Sorlock, but they don't have to be.

Most encounters that's overkill anyway. Wizards do fine in the damage department, even without being #1, while having the highest utility for literally everything else and the best CC in the game.

Clerics clock in second after Wizards.
Last edited by Pan Darius Cassandra; Jul 4, 2023 @ 6:55pm
Foolswalkin Jul 4, 2023 @ 8:35pm 
For the Larianverse, I didn't mean crazy prep. I meant a lot of fights are decided by shooting people off of tall things and their dying to fall damage. Also, I was being silly.

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:
It's always important to look at things in context.

While a Warlock is a great blaster if built that way, a Sorlock is even better (assuming you can convert Pact slots into Sorc Pts).

But blasting things is not the whole of the game, either in TT or BG3, and the Wizard has been, and always will be, Top Dog. Technically, they aren't quite as good a blaster as either the Sorcerer (with Metamagic) or the Warlock (with Eldritch Blast) and certainly not the Sorlock, but they don't have to be.

Most encounters that's overkill anyway. Wizards do fine in the damage department, even without being #1, while having the highest utility for literally everything else and the best CC in the game.

Clerics clock in second after Wizards.

Depending on what invocations are in the final game, I'd likely rank some level split of Warlock/Lore Bard as BG3's top utility character (currently 2/10, but I'm hoping there's better Warlock options in the final release). You get lots of skills along with Expertise and Jack of All Trades so you can grab all the needed face and thief skills, you get Inspiration, Cutting Words, and Song of Rest for party support, you've got a solid spell list and potentially two helpings of magical secrets to cherry pick the best of the best, and you still end up blasting very consistently. Wizard utility, in my experience, has yet to translate well from the tabletop to the screen.

While it obviously doesn’t have the same utility as a lore bard, there’s also some appeal to a pure Warlock running Mask of Many Faces and Whispers of the Grave to kill enemies, turn into one of their race, and then interrogate them via Speak with the Dead.
Last edited by Foolswalkin; Jul 4, 2023 @ 9:00pm
lucifier Jul 4, 2023 @ 10:38pm 
So based on all the previous response, BG3 is not verbatim class/race rules to the PHB?
Thought they would follow the class abilities and race a bonus and other things verbatim.
Last edited by lucifier; Jul 4, 2023 @ 10:39pm
Pan Darius Cassandra (Banned) Jul 4, 2023 @ 10:50pm 
Originally posted by Foolswalkin:
For the Larianverse, I didn't mean crazy prep. I meant a lot of fights are decided by shooting people off of tall things and their dying to fall damage. Also, I was being silly.

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:
It's always important to look at things in context.

While a Warlock is a great blaster if built that way, a Sorlock is even better (assuming you can convert Pact slots into Sorc Pts).

But blasting things is not the whole of the game, either in TT or BG3, and the Wizard has been, and always will be, Top Dog. Technically, they aren't quite as good a blaster as either the Sorcerer (with Metamagic) or the Warlock (with Eldritch Blast) and certainly not the Sorlock, but they don't have to be.

Most encounters that's overkill anyway. Wizards do fine in the damage department, even without being #1, while having the highest utility for literally everything else and the best CC in the game.

Clerics clock in second after Wizards.

Depending on what invocations are in the final game, I'd likely rank some level split of Warlock/Lore Bard as BG3's top utility character (currently 2/10, but I'm hoping there's better Warlock options in the final release). You get lots of skills along with Expertise and Jack of All Trades so you can grab all the needed face and thief skills, you get Inspiration, Cutting Words, and Song of Rest for party support, you've got a solid spell list and potentially two helpings of magical secrets to cherry pick the best of the best, and you still end up blasting very consistently. Wizard utility, in my experience, has yet to translate well from the tabletop to the screen.

While it obviously doesn’t have the same utility as a lore bard, there’s also some appeal to a pure Warlock running Mask of Many Faces and Whispers of the Grave to kill enemies, turn into one of their race, and then interrogate them via Speak with the Dead.

Those are all GREAT points...

The thing people tend to forget about is the Wizard spell list.

Spell lists are the most important feature a Wizard gets, and for a reason.

You know why Wizard subclasses are considered underwhelming? Because thd main feature if the Wizard, their spells, are still the most game breaking thing in all of D&D.

If all you want to do is blast things, yeah, go ahead and make s Sorlock...

But the pure Wizard only falls slightly behind in DPR, and they more than make up for it in battlefield control and utility.

I'm pretty sure a party consisting of a Conjurer, Enchanter, Illusionist and Trsnsmuter is pretty much unbeatable...
Foolswalkin Jul 5, 2023 @ 6:56am 
Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:
Those are all GREAT points...

The thing people tend to forget about is the Wizard spell list.

Spell lists are the most important feature a Wizard gets, and for a reason.

You know why Wizard subclasses are considered underwhelming? Because thd main feature if the Wizard, their spells, are still the most game breaking thing in all of D&D.

If all you want to do is blast things, yeah, go ahead and make s Sorlock...

But the pure Wizard only falls slightly behind in DPR, and they more than make up for it in battlefield control and utility.

I didn't forget, I just think it's less of a big deal than you do. Again, I think a lot of that utility you're thinking of is likely to be lost in a CRPG. Illusion, Divination, Suggestion, and Polymorph effects all really benefit from a cooperative DM. We'll have to see what Larian can pull off, but I'm confident there's going to be some significant value discount there compared to tabletop, we just need to see whether it's a 25% discount or a 75% one. If you don't think this is true, that's fine, we've identified a crux of our disagreement, but I'm not likely to change my opinion on it before the game is in hand.

WIthout throwing the multiclassing in, Lore Bard gets Magic secrets at 6th level and so can grab whatever their party needs to round out their options (maybe two out of Spiritual Weapon, Web, Haste, Fireball, Aura of Vitality, and Spirit Guardians). Their spelllist also shares most of the best Wizard Illusion and Enchantment spells (e.g. Sleep, Invisibility, Hypnotic Pattern) while having additional strengths in buffs and heals/THP gen. Even cantrip-wise, Vicious Mockery is fantastic (especially in conjunction with Cutting Words).

I'm pretty sure a party consisting of a Conjurer, Enchanter, Illusionist and Trsnsmuter is pretty much unbeatable...

I don't think this is meaningfully true when considered in comparison to other options, even against other single class parties (4 Devil's Sight Drow Warlocks, for example, or two Valor Bards and two Lore Bards, or two Tempest Clerics and two Light Clerics), and certainly not in comparison to well-rounded parties. It's not just "what can four wizards do?", it's also the opportunity costs of not being able to do other things. To make a simple substitution, 1 wizard and 3 sorcerers would have most of the versatility of 4 wizards, and a lot more power besides.
Last edited by Foolswalkin; Jul 5, 2023 @ 7:00am
Indure Jul 5, 2023 @ 8:11am 
Originally posted by lucifier:
So based on all the previous response, BG3 is not verbatim class/race rules to the PHB?
Thought they would follow the class abilities and race a bonus and other things verbatim.

They are usually somewhat close, but Larian has either intentionally or unintentionally change most classes and subclasses. In cases like the Light Cleric, they got slightly more powerful due to the reaction system being flawed, while subclasses like Berserker and Beastmaster are just night and day differences from their 5e counterpart.
Lord Adorable Jul 5, 2023 @ 8:13am 
Originally posted by lucifier:
So based on all the previous response, BG3 is not verbatim class/race rules to the PHB?
Thought they would follow the class abilities and race a bonus and other things verbatim.
Larian is homebreweing a fair bit of the weaker or less powerful stuff to make them more up to par with the rest.

They're also replacing some things that are nigh-impossible to translate to a videogame with their own stuff too.
But after that they're very faithful to D&D.
Hobocop Jul 5, 2023 @ 8:16am 
Originally posted by lucifier:
So based on all the previous response, BG3 is not verbatim class/race rules to the PHB?
Thought they would follow the class abilities and race a bonus and other things verbatim.

Thankfully, they did not, or no one would play anything other than a Bear Barbarian for Wildheart, and Beastmaster/Berserker would be left to languish in a corner somewhere.

They're also giving Monks a much needed leg up since they're so Ki dependent to do any of their cool monk stuff.
Last edited by Hobocop; Jul 5, 2023 @ 8:18am
Blackdragon Jul 8, 2023 @ 4:36am 
Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
If you want to know why theres no builds, look no further than the replies on this very thread. People are only arguing about what does the most 1337 damage, and ignoring every other aspect of dungeons and dragons, which is to say the other 75% of the game.

There is no "other 75% of the game". This is not tabletop, and not even a dialogue-intensive CRPG like Planescape: Torment or Disco Elysium. There is almost no player freedom except a few pre-scripted choices, the party is basically railroaded by the mechanical DM, and most utility spells are either absent or nerfed. You can't be a Diplomancer talking your enemies into fighting for you; you can't Scry and Die the enemy leaders; you can't create an army of undead; you can't craft tons of magic items through purposeful underleveling; you don't get Circle Magic; you don't get Companions or Guilds; etc., etc., ad infinitum et ad nauseum.

95% of this game is combat, and 95% of combat is direct damage dealing. 5% of combat is exploiting the AI through ambushes and the like. The non-combat part mainly revolves around Charisma checks by your MC, with a few Lore and ability checks thrown in.

So the best build for the main character is a Charisma-based damage dealer, and of these the best offered by the game is Draconic Sorcerer due to AOE spells and Charisma bonus to damage. Sorcerer also gets social skills as Class skills, with added Proficiency bonus, so the best of both worlds (with Warlock a close second).

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
Additionally, theres no one build that will be the most bestest because you have 4 party members that can be anything you need them to be

Wrong again. Canonically companions have pre-determined stats and first level, which basically locks them into a very narrow variety of builds. Furthermore, companions have their own morality, and if they disagree with your moral choices (easy peasy when playing an evil party in particular), they will leave. Since there are very few companions (no more than 1 for each basic class IIRC), you will most likely not have the full palette of options to round out your party. Not to mention that companions are often badly built, which sub-optimal classes and stat allocation. Finally, you might simply like some companions more than others, and want to play with them (e.g. with a hot elf chick rather than a fugly gnome).

The only real remedy is a total respec option for companions. But that is not something the game offers naturally, and has to be done via modding.

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
new players should always rely on the old tried and true method of "1 tank, 1 healer, 1 utility, 1 ranged damage dealer"

Utter - and I do mean UTTER - bollocks. First off, this is not an "old tried and true method" (in fact, the 4-man party with this kind of allocation of roles only became prominent with the braindead 4th edition D&D, which tried to turn tabletop into an MMO clone). Second, it particularly makes no sense in a CRPG like this one, where there is no "utility" to speak of, and combat is ruled by DPR + stealth to confuse the AI. Having a "tank" is particularly stupid, because putting a character in harm's way and making enemies focus attack him will likely get that character killed, or at least damaged and force ANOTHER character to waste actions and spell slots healing him; thus robbing you of HALF of your party's attack potential.

In short, there are no real "roles". Every single character must be a damage dealer, and best damage is ranged for simple reason of keeping out of harm's way. More damage dealt = enemy killed quicker = less damage suffered = less need for heals (which on a point by point basis are far less efficient than attacks). No need for a dedicated "utility" character either, just grab a few levels of Thief on your Fighter or Barb and pump their relevant skills, while all dialogue checks are done by your Charisma-based MC.

In Solasta (also a 5 ed. D&D CRPG) I had a full party of stealthy ranged DPSers, and they won a lot of encounters before the enemy even had a chance to deal damage (surprise round + winning initiative on first round + ranged advantage + AOE spells and various damage bonuses).

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
Also, usually, when people talk about "the best class" they are almost always going to just talk about who deals the most damage. And most of the time they only calculate it from a turn 1 perspective which is called "going full nova" which means to use all your features and best spells/combos on turn 1 or as early as possible, even if it means you can do nothing on turns 2 and onward.

You don't need to do anything "on turn 2 and onward" if the enemy is already obliterated, or damaged to the point that you only need to clean up.

Front-loading damage is essential because in CRPGs you can often get the drop on enemies, approaching from stealth and initiating fights on your terms. Killing or incapacitating as many enemies as possible before they even get a chance to act gives you an enormous advantage over the rest of the fight, and requires much less "compensatory" resources like heals, counterspells and the like. If you have the ability to hide after the first salvo, it is even better - and you can, in this game.

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
sustained damage, full nova damage, or someone who can be unkillable. Those are the 3 main types of combat characters.

There is only 1 real type of combat character: the one who destroys the enemy quickly and does not get killed himself. In your terms, that character can do both "nova" and "sustained" AND is "unkillable" (for a large part due to eliminating enemies through overwhelming damage, but also through defensive abilities).

As one character in a certain D&D comic put it, "Power equals power". That's it. You use what gives you the most power. Everything else is just empty talk. In this game, power comes from massive overwhelming DPR and stealth.

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
For all we know, Fireball might end up being worthless by comparison to some other grossly OP strategy, but we cant make that determination until the game comes out.

We already know the basics thanks to Early Access. And yes, Fireball IS great.

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
I would say, for BG3, a reliable strategy would be Warlock--Darkness-- Devil Sight. This lets you cast darkness and see through it. enemies wont really be able to attack you, and you'll be able to attack them. It also lets you steal from every NPC free and clear for infinite money. See, that trick wouldn't work in table top DnD, but it works beautifully in this game.

This shows just how little you know about tabletop and CRPGs. Darkness + Devil Sight is actually one of the most banal, cookie cutter combos for tabletop Warlocks. Also one which is notoriously badly implemented in CRPGs. BG3 is no exception - the Darkness + Devil Sight combo has been bugged in EA for ages. By patch 9 it seemed to work for melee attacks, but not ranged attacks - and in the absence of Hexblade, melee warlocks suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JAJKvyxOw

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:
Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons, we agree on nothing and argue about everything.

That is just uneducated nihilism. There are universally agreed "meta" builds for every D&D tabletop edition and for every D&D CRPG, which are based on entirely objective data analysed by generations of experienced players. The fact that you know nothing about it, and swim in the "kiddie pool" of the most perfunctory, superficial understanding of game mechanics, does not mean that everybody else is similarly ignorant.
Last edited by Blackdragon; Jul 8, 2023 @ 4:39am
Foolswalkin Jul 8, 2023 @ 6:14am 
Originally posted by Blackdragon:
you can't create an army of undead;

Just the absolutely tiniest quibble - though clearly the interwebs want to only talk bear sex, the Panel from Hell mentioned that four Necromancers could, in fact, create an army of the undead. It's nearly a direct quote.
Last edited by Foolswalkin; Jul 8, 2023 @ 6:14am
No_Name Jul 8, 2023 @ 6:29am 
if its like 5e then Sorlock and lockdin is stupidly strong both defensively and offensively but i figure since its a game that stealth will be op if you can just attack and instantly stealth.
Foolswalkin Jul 8, 2023 @ 1:13pm 
Originally posted by No_Name:
if its like 5e then Sorlock and lockdin is stupidly strong both defensively and offensively but i figure since its a game that stealth will be op if you can just attack and instantly stealth.

Still don't know if the cantrips/class features needed for best versions of Lockadin or Sorcadin will be in the game. Bardadin should work for sword and valor, and EB Sorlock should as well.
Dremall Jul 8, 2023 @ 1:39pm 
Originally posted by lucifier:
So based on all the previous response, BG3 is not verbatim class/race rules to the PHB?
Thought they would follow the class abilities and race a bonus and other things verbatim.

They had Jeremy Crawford during the panel from hell when they introduced druids. Pretty much he had said the tabletop rules are such that they can't cover every thing a player could come up with. However in a video game the bounds are more heavily defined so the developer can be more creative as they ultimately determine the balance.
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Date Posted: Jul 4, 2023 @ 12:55pm
Posts: 51