Astarion 1h rapier build?

[24601]

Every time I've used Astarion so far, I've made him a dual-wielding thief for all the bonus attacks, but having seen his loading screen artwork I'm curious as to whether he has a viable 1h rapier build (plus it would quite cool). Is it worth trying to turn him into a sort of defensive duelist, especially when Shadowheart already has such great tanking potential?

[sevensided]

Not really. Not in EA, at least. If sneak attack was done properly (as an add on to attacks instead of a separate ability) and the game had the blade cantrips (booming blade and green flame blade) then Arcane Trickster would work wonders as a 1h rapier sort.

But defensive duelist is not a good feat.

[Yojo0o]

With how effective bonus actions/dual wielding is in BG3 compared to tabletop, I'd much rather dual wield with him. Rapier rogues are fantastic in 5e rules otherwise.

Originally posted by sevensided:

Not really. Not in EA, at least. If sneak attack was done properly (as an add on to attacks instead of a separate ability) and the game had the blade cantrips (booming blade and green flame blade) then Arcane Trickster would work wonders as a 1h rapier sort.

Not sure I understand this angle. Neither Sneak Attack nor BB/GFB scale with weapon damage in RAW 5e, what am I missing?

But defensive duelist is not a good feat.

Agreed there. It's a good feature to have, but the opportunity cost of spending a feat is unreasonable for it compared to better feats or an ASI, so there's virtually never a good time to take it.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by sevensided:

Not really. Not in EA, at least. If sneak attack was done properly (as an add on to attacks instead of a separate ability) and the game had the blade cantrips (booming blade and green flame blade) then Arcane Trickster would work wonders as a 1h rapier sort.

Not sure I understand this angle. Neither Sneak Attack nor BB/GFB scale with weapon damage in RAW 5e, what am I missing?

Well, you could use any weapon really, but why not the highest damage finesse weapon you can manage? And if you're using blade cantrips, no point in dual wielding. So yeah, its not a rapier specific concept but it is marginally better with a rapier, and stylish to boot!

[Wolff]

You want 18 Dex on Astarion. Best companion with Bow and duel-wielding hand crossbows.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Rapier is fine on a Rogue. You can get the dual wielder feat and use Rapier/Dagger just for that swashbuckler feel (there are decent magical weapons to support it too), or you can get medium armor proficiency and use a shield for even higher AC. Or, just use a rapier in one hand, save that bonus action for something other than attacking, or go Arcane Trickster (admittedly not that powerul yet).

[dolby]

duel-wielding hand crossbows. forget about rapiers in EA... if we had multyc sure as is not really you will have to buy arrows though and sadly they only work as main action due to larian inability to make a proper archery system with quiver and slots for it.

[KeepCleaving]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

With how effective bonus actions/dual wielding is in BG3 compared to tabletop, I'd much rather dual wield with him. Rapier rogues are fantastic in 5e rules otherwise.

Originally posted by sevensided:

Not really. Not in EA, at least. If sneak attack was done properly (as an add on to attacks instead of a separate ability) and the game had the blade cantrips (booming blade and green flame blade) then Arcane Trickster would work wonders as a 1h rapier sort.

Not sure I understand this angle. Neither Sneak Attack nor BB/GFB scale with weapon damage in RAW 5e, what am I missing?

But defensive duelist is not a good feat.

Agreed there. It's a good feature to have, but the opportunity cost of spending a feat is unreasonable for it compared to better feats or an ASI, so there's virtually never a good time to take it.

I agree with Sevensided completely. I think what he means to say is as a thief, you use your bonus actions for the off hand damage. As an arcane trickster, you would use your bonus actions for spells, so having the best one handed weapon you can have in just your mainhand makes sense. In the grand scheme of things, using your offhand for damage as an arcane trickster is a massive waste most of the time. Also in dnd 5e, you need a hand free to cast spells unless stated otherwise by using focuses or a feat (not a thing in bg3 I don't think).

[KeepCleaving]

With the feat "War Caster" rogues's attack of opportunities are devastating. Assuming and hoping that Blade cantrips come to the game on release. enemy provokes attack of opportunity, you cast booming blade(1d8) thunder dmg because the target is moving, and then 3d6 sneak dmg + weapon damage + stat and proficiency bonus.

If Larian can make sneak attack passive,or added to the reaction menu.

[Yojo0o]

How many bonus action spell options to Arcane Tricksters even have, guys?

A 1d8 Rapier hits an average of 1 damage more than a 1d6 short sword. That's good, but most of the damage is going to come from the pile of d6s from your Sneak Attack anyway.

Yes, I prefer a single rapier in tabletop for a variety of reasons, but like I said, BG3 handles it differently.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by KeepCleaving:

With the feat "War Caster" rogues's attack of opportunities are devastating. Assuming and hoping that Blade cantrips come to the game on release. enemy provokes attack of opportunity, you cast booming blade(1d8) thunder dmg because the target is moving, and then 3d6 sneak dmg + weapon damage + stat and proficiency bonus.

If Larian can make sneak attack passive,or added to the reaction menu.

You can still Sneak Attack out of turn in tabletop without War Caster, and I don't think the feat is worth being able to simply get the extra Booming Blade occasionally. I don't think we're getting the blade cantrips in the base game though, as they're not PHB content.

[dolby]

you can sneak attack twice per turn in bg 3 once with melee and once with range attack... THe reason is larian wants to fill those hotbars for Martial classes...with something... instead of giving us a proper sneak attack we have this more cheez with haste...

[KeepCleaving]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by KeepCleaving:

With the feat "War Caster" rogues's attack of opportunities are devastating. Assuming and hoping that Blade cantrips come to the game on release. enemy provokes attack of opportunity, you cast booming blade(1d8) thunder dmg because the target is moving, and then 3d6 sneak dmg + weapon damage + stat and proficiency bonus.

If Larian can make sneak attack passive,or added to the reaction menu.

You can still Sneak Attack out of turn in tabletop without War Caster, and I don't think the feat is worth being able to simply get the extra Booming Blade occasionally. I don't think we're getting the blade cantrips in the base game though, as they're not PHB content.

of course you can sneak out of turn without warcaster. The point of war caster is to use booming blade as well as your sneak attack damage. Booming blade's damage scales incredibly well, and is the only way a rogue can even remotely keep up with the dmg fighter's and Barbarians deal. bonus actions spells there are plenty, even healing word and misty step alone is worth it's weight in gold. Also when you get to level 7, you will get shadowblade(if of course we get tasha's sourcebook stuff) now the way attacks and abilities seem to work in BG3 that means you can sneak attack with your shadowblade and booming blade at the same time. Warcaster comes into play extra well to keep Shadowblade concentration up. Also would you believe that shadowblade is also a bonus action?

level 7 arcane trickster
rapier = 1d8 + 3 (assuming dex of +3 mod)
sneak= 4d6
Shadowblade= 2d6
Booming blade= 1d8
If moving + 2d8

Now you can wield a short sword or dagger.. but why? Unless it's better quality of course.