Why doesn't sneak attack work like smite?

[Chywire]

They have this whole system for activating abilities based on conditions now, why is sneak attack still a one time per turn ability that can not be applied to offhand attacks when it misses?

[RhodosGuard]

Okay, there is no reason to keep talking there.

Here is what an argument is:
A reason why your opinion should be acted upon over the opinion of someone else.

None of what you said was an argument, and you trying to go "YES IT IS" just shows how little you understand discussions.

Originally posted by RACHMANOVSKI:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

We could see if you have any good arguments if you tried bringing an actual argument for once.

Not an argument.

This is just your "opinion", your "perspective".

See what I did there?

It wasnt supposed to be an argument dude. It was a statement.
It's not reasoning I use to underline my argumentation.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by RACHMANOVSKI:

=
It's like: Why can't I have blur *and* bless *and* shield of faith simultaneously?

1. All I want is for Larian to modified RAW rule so that you can't sneak attack *and* smite or sneak attack with GFB simultaneously.

2. "So then it crippled one skill that make multiclassing to rogue a good option" -- not necessarily, you also get non-combat proficiencies.

Having seen your opinion, and the reasoning for it- the conclusion is that your opinion is terrible.

First off, the blur/bless comparison is irrelevant. Concentration spells are concentration spells, not signature class abilities (smite and sneak attack)- foundational reasons to take a class .

If you multiclass to get sneak attack and smite, you are sacrificing, among other things, the strength of both. Smite and sneak attack will both be weaker than if you single classed for either (you'd also get fewer smites in the long run). -[removed because corrected]- No reason to nerf Sneak Attack for the fear of the multiclass.

Further, not that it currently matters because GFB/Booming Blade do not exist in BG3 yet, but if they did, your opinion on how Sneak Attack should interact with GFB/Booming (Lets be real here, a rogue will use Booming usually for hit and run) would unreasonably nerf one of the reasons to take Arcane Trickster. Or any rogue that uses an ASI/Feat to take magic initiate to pick up Booming Blade.

You're not just asking for Larian to go against RAW, but also RAI.

*edited to reflect Rhodos's correct corrections*

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by RACHMANOVSKI:

=
It's like: Why can't I have blur *and* bless *and* shield of faith simultaneously?

1. All I want is for Larian to modified RAW rule so that you can't sneak attack *and* smite or sneak attack with GFB simultaneously.

2. "So then it crippled one skill that make multiclassing to rogue a good option" -- not necessarily, you also get non-combat proficiencies.

Having seen your opinion, and the reasoning for it- the conclusion is that your opinion is terrible.

First off, the blur/bless comparison is irrelevant. Concentration spells are concentration spells, not signature class abilities (smite and sneak attack)- foundational reasons to take a class .

If you multiclass to get sneak attack and smite, you are sacrificing, among other things, the strength of both. Smite and sneak attack will both be weaker than if you single classed for either (you'd also get fewer smites in the long run). Additionally, sneak attacks limitations impact some of the reasons to take paladin :using big eff off weapons with strength and having heavy armor. Using finesse weapons means focusing dex, which means no plate for you. No reason to nerf Sneak Attack for the fear of the multiclass.

Further, not that it currently matters because GFB/Booming Blade do not exist in BG3 yet, but if they did, your opinion on how Sneak Attack should interact with GFB/Booming (Lets be real here, a rogue will use Booming usually for hit and run) would unreasonably nerf one of the reasons to take Arcane Trickster. Or any rogue that uses an ASI/Feat to take magic initiate to pick up Booming Blade.

You're not just asking for Larian to go against RAW, but also RAI.

Just a correction:
You actually dont need to focus DEX for FInesse weapons, because Finesse Weapons will actually work with Dex or Str whatever is higher.
But yes, I agree that even the best Finesse Weapon is inferior to 2handed options.
But it's also still on par with the best one-handed weapons (Same Damage as a longsword)

So you could be reasonably tanky and deal damage.
That's why I wouldnt count equipment limitations.
After all Paladins are reasonably tanky.
SO if you conceptualize your Paladin as "the tank" of the group, then it could be argued that Sneak + Smite is significant damage on a class that also gets a 20 AC with Plate and Shield.

So, just checking
Level 1 Divine Smite + Level 1 Sneak attack + Rapier
AVG Damage 17.05
Level 1 Divine Smite + Greatsword
AVG Damage 16.6
Level 1 Divine Smite + GreatAxe
AVG Damage 17.3

[sevensided]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Just a correction:
You actually dont need to focus DEX for FInesse weapons, because Finesse Weapons will actually work with Dex or Str whatever is higher.
But yes, I agree that even the best Finesse Weapon is inferior to 2handed options.
But it's also still on par with the best one-handed weapons (Same Damage as a longsword)

So you could be reasonably tanky and deal damage.
That's why I wouldnt count equipment limitations.
After all Paladins are reasonably tanky.
SO if you conceptualize your Paladin as "the tank" of the group, then it could be argued that Sneak + Smite is significant damage on a class that also gets a 20 AC with Plate and Shield.

Fair point, but your smite and sneak attack combo are still going to be weaker than going one way or another alone.

Also, I would argue if you want to be a tank, and not just a meatshield, you go polearm with polearm master/sentinel, but thats for another discussion.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Just a correction:
You actually dont need to focus DEX for FInesse weapons, because Finesse Weapons will actually work with Dex or Str whatever is higher.
But yes, I agree that even the best Finesse Weapon is inferior to 2handed options.
But it's also still on par with the best one-handed weapons (Same Damage as a longsword)

So you could be reasonably tanky and deal damage.
That's why I wouldnt count equipment limitations.
After all Paladins are reasonably tanky.
SO if you conceptualize your Paladin as "the tank" of the group, then it could be argued that Sneak + Smite is significant damage on a class that also gets a 20 AC with Plate and Shield.

Fair point, but your smite and sneak attack combo are still going to be weaker than going one way or another alone.

Greataxe + max Smite (4th spell level)
Average: 31.958333333333332

Rapier + Max Sneak Attack (level 20)
Average: 45.00000000000003

At a 3 level dip a Paladin would still have 3 uses of his best smite

Rapier + Max Smite + Sneak attack (2d6)
Average: 34.15798611111112

So it is worse than a max Rogue, but still 3 more average damage than a full divine Smite Paladin

[RhodosGuard]

Oh, and if we assume the limit for BG3 will be level 12 the numbers will once again be different:

Pure Paladin (Greataxe, 4th level smite)
Average: 27.083333333333332

Pure Rogue (6d6 Sneak)
Average: 26.625

3level Rogue Dip
Average: 29.64236111111111

All calculations without considering Extra Attack

[RhodosGuard]

If we consider Feats and their requirements dips always come back worse, because you always lose at least one ASI/Feat, unless you do a 1 level dip

[RACHMANOVSKI]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Okay, there is no reason to keep talking there.

See, this is why I don't write long sentences.

Someone can just dodge it and take a flight and ignore everything I say instead of engaging each points and explain why it's wrong/worse.

Tshcuss, I guess.

Originally posted by sevensided:

Having seen your opinion, and the reasoning for it- the conclusion is that your opinion is terrible.

First off, the blur/bless comparison is irrelevant. Concentration spells are concentration spells, not signature class abilities (smite and sneak attack)- foundational reasons to take a class .

If you multiclass to get sneak attack and smite, you are sacrificing, among other things, the strength of both. Smite and sneak attack will both be weaker than if you single classed for either (you'd also get fewer smites in the long run).

Thank you for your assessment.

1. I think the comparison is relevant because, in my opinion, it's about being able to stack bonuses, regardless of whether concentration mechanics is existing or not. Even without concentration, outside of this discussion, I think stacking AC enhancing spells is not good because then the enemy need to be designed to have ridiculously have Attack roll to be able to predict your stacking ability.

By the same logic, I think even if it's weaker and if you play Paladin, eventually you can attack less there are 2 things I want people to consider:

a) You can still always be SA-ing.
b) You get skill bonuses that otherwises gatekept behind feats that you can spent to ASI or other Role-playing purposes feats (like dual wielding).

Originally posted by sevensided:

Additionally, sneak attacks limitations impact some of the reasons to take paladin :using big eff off weapons with strength and having heavy armor. Using finesse weapons means focusing dex, which means no plate for you. No reason to nerf Sneak Attack for the fear of the multiclass.

This is actually good, I tend to agree that it's a good penalty (short off) for combat classes to be penaltied by not being able to utilize their class beneficial features just so they can sneak attacking.

However, Paladin/Rogue can still use Shield, so you don't lose that much AC. And since you get extra skill proficiency bonus (cmiiw), and still being able to sneak attack, albeit weaker, in my opinion (heavy emphasis on my opinion there), you shouldn't also be able to stack smite and sneak attack, especially when the game also give you other option to adds damage roll to weapon.

Originally posted by sevensided:

Further, not that it currently matters because GFB/Booming Blade do not exist in BG3 yet, but if they did, your opinion on how Sneak Attack should interact with GFB/Booming (Lets be real here, a rogue will use Booming usually for hit and run) would unreasonably nerf one of the reasons to take Arcane Trickster. Or any rogue that uses an ASI/Feat to take magic initiate to pick up Booming Blade.

You're not just asking for Larian to go against RAW, but also RAI.

I am asking Larian to go against RAW/RAI or whatever to make that Rogue not a class your Paladin pick to add damage to your smite.

It's like I said above, it's my "want", my "wish", my "thesis". I have 0 hope nor expectation any of my "wish", "want" or "thesis" to be implemented, it's just an opinion, a banter even.

[RhodosGuard]

Imagine having people literally show you the marginal gain/loss in average damage (it's at max 2 or 3 more average damage) and still writing full ass essays.

If it's just an opinion or banter, then you still surely seem to be overly attached to it.

[RACHMANOVSKI]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

then you still surely seem to be overly attached to it.

I am, is there a problem officer?

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by RACHMANOVSKI:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

then you still surely seem to be overly attached to it.

I am, is there a problem officer?

Yes, it's called delusion.
I have no expectation for them to change sneak either. I mean it does currently work the way you want it to work. But at least I have the literal numbers to prove that your argument of "IT WOULD BE TO STRONG MIMIMIMIMI" is completely wrong.

[RACHMANOVSKI]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Yes, it's called delusion.

Is it disturb you so much that someone else having "delusion"?

Edit:

Also:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

"IT WOULD BE TO STRONG MIMIMIMIMI"

I'm going to need to meet the version of me you made up in your mind that you'd think I'd say something "MIMIMIMIMI", because I'd share the zaza hit with that guy.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by RACHMANOVSKI:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Yes, it's called delusion.

Is it disturb you so much that someone else having "delusion"?

Edit:

Also:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

"IT WOULD BE TO STRONG MIMIMIMIMI"

I'm going to need to meet the version of me you made up in your mind that you'd think I'd say something "MIMIMIMIMI", because I'd share the zaza hit with that guy.

Yes it disturbs me that someone with no arguments who is factually proven to be wrong, tries to use their delusional idea to weaken a discussion about a healthy decision for the way the game is played.

Also, you dont seem to understand what hyperbole and "making fun of someone" is.

But since jokes always get funnier when you explain them:
I added a "MIMIMIMIMI" to your one and only argument because you insist not only that it is true, but because you insist on trying to push that dumb argument over and over like a kid incapable of accepting that a 2-3 difference in damage is not worth crippling the base class feature of the rogue.

But since you insist I demolish you even more:

here are the numbers when you account for Extra Attack:

Greataxe + max smite (x2)
Average: 64

No Numbers for pure Rogues, since Rogues dont get Extra Attack

Rapier + 3rd level Sneak Attack + Max Smite (Extra Attack)
Average: 65

OH NO this is really bad, we cant let paladins gain 1 additional damage!

[RACHMANOVSKI]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

OH NO this is really bad, we cant let paladins gain 1 additional damage!

Yes we shouldn't. That is my "want", my "wish", my "thesis".

I will personally send message to Swen at Larian that I will cancel my 1 million dollars' worth of collector edition pre-order if he did enable stacking smite with rogue sneak attack.

No sloppy kisses I promised him and my purchase will no longer ensure the company break even.

I also will inform larian that RhodosGuard will need to be castrated if he want to multiclass.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Meowella]

In DnD, the haste spell would let Rogues attack on their turn, then ready an action to attack on another creature's turn, doubling their sneak damage. Sneak damage would also be applied to Attacks of Opportunity.
By having it as a specific attack, it really hamstrings the Rogue and prevents them getting to have fun sometimes.

Also if Booming Blade was allowed on a High-Elf Swashbuckler they're sitting on 2d8+3d6+4 at 5th level, with 2d8 damage to the enemy for moving (Swashbuckler fancy footwork lets them avoid AoO when moving away to force the enemy to trigger the booming blade movement damage)
Compared to the Paladin's 4d6+8, with 4 1st and 2 2nd slots for smites (2d8 1st, 3d8 2nd, so 14d8 per day)
So the Paladin averages 22 plus 14/3d8 for 3 rounds of combat each day, or 43 total.
The Rogue averages 23.5 plus 9 or 32.5 all day long.

I think they're both comparable tbh.

Also top smiter is a Half-Orc Sword Bard (9 Bard 3 Assassin 3 Gloomstalker 3 Echo Knight 2 Paladin) makes 9 attacks in the surprise round, all crits, with 4/3/3/3/2/1 spell slots to smite (2 attack actions due to Action surge, each gaining +1 attack from gloomstalker dread ambusher and echo knight unleash incarnation plus 1 from Great Weapon Master's bonus action attack since you're definitely triggering it with a crit).
Each attack is 1d12 greataxe +1d12 crit +1d12 half orc crit plus 5 str plus 10 GWM
Total smite dice is 59d8, double on crit to 118.
Dread Ambusher is 2d8, doubled to 4d8 from crit.
No sneak attack (using greataxe).
Great Weapon Fighting style means each d12 averages 7.33, not 6.5
Total is 9 * 3d12+5 plus 122d8 +135, or an average of
9*(22+15) + 122*4.5 = 882 average.

But of course worrying about numbers too much will seriously ruin your enjoyment of the game so just have fun and don't try to power game DnD, it's not worth it!