Why are the damn half-elves so op?

[Ninjamestari]

Topic. Pls nerf helves and buff hoomans.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Because helf only loses 1 str against the horc, but gains either a free cantrip or movement speed. In the end, helf can do anything a horc can and then some.

I'd infinitely prefer +1 strength over either of those, especially over a cantrip that the barb is never going to actually be able to cast in a fight.

It may not matter as much when the level cap is 4, but the longer a campaign goes, the more those starting stats help open new opportunities in the build.

[Ninjamestari]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Because helf only loses 1 str against the horc, but gains either a free cantrip or movement speed. In the end, helf can do anything a horc can and then some.

I'd infinitely prefer +1 strength over either of those, especially over a cantrip that the barb is never going to actually be able to cast in a fight.

It may not matter as much when the level cap is 4, but the longer a campaign goes, the more those starting stats help open new opportunities in the build.

I might as well if str wasn't capped at 20 anyway, meaning you'll get 20 str regardless of whether you're horc or helf. That cantrip on the other hand can go a LONG way, maybe not in a fight but depending on what you pick, it can be really powerful. Or you can just go half wood elf and have that additional movement speed which is more powerful than anything a horc gets.

[Ninjamestari]

Originally posted by byron_furmando:

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

we're interested in reality here, not opinions.

Dungeons and Reality not Dungeons and Opinions.

D&D is based on mathematical rules you know.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

I'd infinitely prefer +1 strength over either of those, especially over a cantrip that the barb is never going to actually be able to cast in a fight.

It may not matter as much when the level cap is 4, but the longer a campaign goes, the more those starting stats help open new opportunities in the build.

I might as well if str wasn't capped at 20 anyway, meaning you'll get 20 str regardless of whether you're horc or helf. That cantrip on the other hand can go a LONG way, maybe not in a fight but depending on what you pick, it can be really powerful. Or you can just go half wood elf and have that additional movement speed which is more powerful than anything a horc gets.

Capping strength means that you can pivot into constitution, or take more feats. It's not like you're going to come at all close to running out of ASI uses on any character. And what cantrip, exactly, is going to be helpful for a barbarian? You can't even cast while raging. What "long way" is a random cantrip going for a barb?

Movement speed is nice, but barbarians get boosts to it naturally. I doubt it'll ever be better for a barbarian compared to extra strength, Savage Attacks, and Relentless Endurance. Wood Half-Elf is easily superior to High Half-Elves because of this speed, but it's still not nearly as much as what half-orcs get.

[Ninjamestari]

Why don't you take a look at the cantrip list and demonstrate that you actually have rudimentary brain functions. A well placed cantrip can win you the battle in plenty of situations, and if you can't figure out a combat utility for any of the cantrips to save your life, then there's always friends.

Savage attacks is nice, I'll grant you that, but it requires a crit, meaning that it is highly unreliable. Extra movement speed is always there and gives you so much more options during combat.

[larhtas]

So nothing on the "why half-elf are the better rogue" still?
At least we agree on the hill dwarf better barbarian than half-elf.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Why don't you take a look at the cantrip list and demonstrate that you actually have rudimentary brain functions. A well placed cantrip can win you the battle in plenty of situations, and if you can't figure out a combat utility for any of the cantrips to save your life, then there's always friends.

Savage attacks is nice, I'll grant you that, but it requires a crit, meaning that it is highly unreliable. Extra movement speed is always there and gives you so much more options during combat.

Seriously, personal insults? Just tell me what you mean. I play DnD all the time, I have the whole cantrip list memorized and I understand which ones are or are not powerful, and I firmly do not see any combat application for any cantrip for a barbarian. Surely you understand that they cannot cast cantrips while raging, and they're going to want to be raging 100% of the time in combat. Any attack cantrip they get will be extremely inaccurate due to their terrible intelligence score, so that's out. Blade cantrips, which don't even exist in BG3 yet/at all, are incompatible with a barbarian's Extra Attack, and don't work while raging anyway. Blade Ward is already a bad cantrip, and is entirely redundant with being in Rage, having a simply more conditional damage resistance. True Strike is awful. Which cantrip are you seeing that somehow applies to a barbarian's game plan?

So spare me the insinuation that I lack "rudimentary brain functions" and please take the time to defend your position. This is your post, you've made an assertion that flies in the face of years of 5e optimization theory, I hope you have a better explanation for it than "you have to be smart or you won't get it".

[dolby]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by Ninjamestari:

Why don't you take a look at the cantrip list and demonstrate that you actually have rudimentary brain functions. A well placed cantrip can win you the battle in plenty of situations, and if you can't figure out a combat utility for any of the cantrips to save your life, then there's always friends.

Savage attacks is nice, I'll grant you that, but it requires a crit, meaning that it is highly unreliable. Extra movement speed is always there and gives you so much more options during combat.

Seriously, personal insults? Just tell me what you mean. I play DnD all the time, I have the whole cantrip list memorized and I understand which ones are or are not powerful, and I firmly do not see any combat application for any cantrip for a barbarian. Surely you understand that they cannot cast cantrips while raging, and they're going to want to be raging 100% of the time in combat. Any attack cantrip they get will be extremely inaccurate due to their terrible intelligence score, so that's out. Blade cantrips, which don't even exist in BG3 yet/at all, are incompatible with a barbarian's Extra Attack, and don't work while raging anyway. Blade Ward is already a bad cantrip, and is entirely redundant with being in Rage, having a simply more conditional damage resistance. True Strike is awful. Which cantrip are you seeing that somehow applies to a barbarian's game plan?

So spare me the insinuation that I lack "rudimentary brain functions" and please take the time to defend your position. This is your post, you've made an assertion that flies in the face of years of 5e optimization theory, I hope you have a better explanation for it than "you have to be smart or you won't get it".

ow that got to hurt... spot on...:)

[Mr. Smiles]

I'd call it a problem with 5e rather than humans. In older D&D versions each race has bonuses and penalties to their stats, except for humans. This was because humans were the base standard (i.e.: all other races are compared to humans), so a half-orc would be stronger than a human (on average), but not quite as smart.

In 5e classes no longer have penalties, so humans look weaker, but if you change your perspective, you'll see that humans aren't that bad.

If you assume humans are the base standard and get no bonuses, instead the default stats are 3d6 + 1, then any race that has a stat that only goes to 3d6, is in fact a penalty. So half-elfs actually have (compared to a human) a +1 in charisma and a -1 stats of their choice.
Don't sound so OP now, does it. Other stuff like cantrips or movement is dependent on your play style, but stats are the basis of all abilities, so having higher stats will give you an advantage in the long run.

For instance if you have 19 str and 19 con, it doesn't do anything that another player with 18 in those stats would do. However, once you reach level 4 and can distribute 2 more points, suddenly you have 20 str and 20 con, which are significantly stronger as the other player can only get 1 of those stats up to 20.

tl;dr; Half-elfs are not OP, it's all a matter of perspective and play-style.

[Linde]

I offer to you an alternate interpretation:

Humans are better than half elves in BG3.

When I make a human wizard I can start with 16 in dex, con & int. But as a half elf I have to not dump charisma and now suddenly have to choose which of my 3 main stats have to start at 15. So I loose either 1hp per level, or 1 AC, and all I get in return is +1 to charisma based skills and either a useless cantrip that I can just add for 50 gold during game play or some movement that ain't ever gonna do a difference when I can just cast obscuring mist and hide in it. To make it all worse for the half elf, he can't even carry as much loot as his human counter part.

[Flintskalle]

In Elden Ring some people argue over the best starting class for each build type.
Some people pick the class that has starting armor they prefer.
Some pick wretch and do the whole run without leveling.
Most just play the game.
None of these approaches are wrong, but none are right either.

Half-elf is the mathematically best race for a lot of classes in BG3? Ok, cool, something has to be and movement is always a powerful boon. Might even be a fun topic on which classes benefit most and why.
Just don't get so heated over it. Demanding nerfs when the benefits are minimal, in a single player game to boot, is pretty excessive for an issue most people don't care about.

PS: Dwarf race, best race, min-max be damned.

[frowningmirror]

Half elves are good, but i mean, so are humans.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by frowningmirror:

Half elves are good, but i mean, so are humans.

Eh but Half Elves are better my guy. =)

[Twice]

Lmao the OP is your average int-dumpstat player and practices the rules of "Baby's first internet argument", highly amusing to say the least.

Maybe he has a point though. Wouldn't be the first time the village idiot sees something the rest don't.

[Trap Queen 85]

Originally posted by Twice Dead:

Lmao the OP is your average int-dumpstat player and practices the rules of "Baby's first internet argument", highly amusing to say the least.

Maybe he has a point though. Wouldn't be the first time the village idiot sees something the rest don't.

Ahhh I see you Hodor =)