Why would anyone worship Shar?

[cl656]

I read a book in the game about a cleric of Shar. This cleric was a woman who dedicated her entire life to the worship of Shar. Her reward for her service and devotion to Shar towards the end of her life, was to have a meaningless death by being completely forgotten by Shar.

Some Goddess...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Most inhabitants of Faerun don't have the same meta knowledge of the cosmos that players of D&D do.

Cults typically lie and manipulate their members at first, and even the gods themselves engage in this kind of behavior.

What most D&D players get wrong when it comes to evil cults and gods is the idea that the cult itself is completely in the know, rather than being merely deluded and misled by it's leadership and it's god.

[frowningmirror]

If you worship Shar, you're a simp

But no, D&D morality has never made much sense to me, there are powers that balance "good" and "evil", and you can sense peoples "morality", which is more absurd to me than slinging fireballs or rewinding time

[meowbeast]

She still gives her clerics magic spells. More than any god in real life does.

[Long Journey]

I mean, Shar is a goddess who promises to relieve those who follow her of their burdens and painful memories. She is, after all, the embodiment of darkness and the void. She is also highly manipulative and will trick mortals into worshiping her to fulfill her own ends.

Think of it like this, or like Shadowheart: You have lived a life of immense pain and suffering. You are down trodden and left to wallow in the mud, being tread upon by those to have more power than you. Living from day to day is terribly painful and you wish that something could take all of this pain and suffering away from you. One day, you unwittingly meet a follower of Shar who creates a shared bond and they begin to talk about Shar, her goals, and how she rewards her faithful. Compared to what you have experienced, this sounds like a dream come true! Next thing you know, you are inducted into their cult and give up memories to solidify your dedication to the Dark Lady. Now, you are free from all that pain that hampered you for so long and for the first time in your life, you feel happy and like you have purpose.

People who are in pain are much easier to manipulate and that is partially why people follow Shar. They don't like pain and Shar gives them the relief they sought for so so long.

[Hex]

You have to worship someone or you get unimaginably screwed. Death in the prime plane means nothing.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by TheBestSparkleDog:

It is difficult to understand how anyone could worship Shar especially given the murders they commit.

It isn't "murder" if the person is you're sworn and hated enemy. An enemy combatant.

The way these kinds of evil cults work is that they tend to prey upon the marginalized or scorned, and they recruit by offering something the recruiter thinks they want. For example, the person might want revenge against a lord for some slight, real or perceived, the lord committed against them and they feel powerless to do anything to someone of higher station, or maybe they want revenge for spurned love, or a lost relative or lover that was killed by someone or something, and the recruiter offers to help them achieve that, then in the process the recruitee gets to see a portion of their power, and thinks to themselves, "Huh, if I could do that myself..."

Then, over time, the recruiter starts to teach them the 'mysteries' of this particular cult - the manner in which their god/goddess is perceived by them (which is completely different to how the rest of society perceives them), they tell them the "true" history of their deity (which is always sympathetic to that deity's cause, regardless of what the deity may have done or not) and begin to indoctrinate them to their ideology. They will provide instructive and material lessons whenever possible that demonstrate the truth behind their deity's ideology.

And then one day, you wake up and you're a Cleric of Shar.

[meowbeast]

Originally posted by TheBestSparkleDog:

Of course its murder. Abducting and killing someone to appease your bloodthirsty goddess in sacrifice is murder. Sharians are hated for participating in human sacrifice and brainwashing all of which is evil

No, you need to respect their religious freedom.

[Indure]

Probably the same reasoning why people in our world worship satan.

Shar worshipers are generally outcasts that were persecuted by humans and society, so it is perfectly reasonable for them to trade death and destruction of humans for power. "The Child Who is Not Embraced by the Village Will Burn it Down to Feel its Warmth."

[meowbeast]

Originally posted by Indure:

Probably the same reasoning why people in our world worship satan.

Shar worshipers are generally outcasts that were persecuted by humans and society, so it is perfectly reasonable for them to trade death and destruction of humans for power. "The Child Who is Not Embraced by the Village Will Burn it Down to Feel its Warmth."

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by meowbeast:

Originally posted by Indure:

Probably the same reasoning why people in our world worship satan.

Shar worshipers are generally outcasts that were persecuted by humans and society, so it is perfectly reasonable for them to trade death and destruction of humans for power. "The Child Who is Not Embraced by the Village Will Burn it Down to Feel its Warmth."

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

Many Satanists also don't believe in the literal existence of Satan as a deity or entity of any kind - it's more of a reactionary blowback to Xianity. I once counted myself among them, but I never joined a Church or group of other Satanists, and I only called myself one for a few short years before I found Our Lady of Hee Haws, Eris Discordia (Hail Eris, fNoRD). Satanism is just a flavor of ultra-humanism, where the status of humanity is placed above that of any (real or perceived) deity. It's about self-empowerment, rather than subservience. They also talk a lot about being personally responsible for everything one does.

Mostly, I get a HUGE kick out of how they troll Xians, particularly in deeply religious places like Florida, where they're constantly challenging all religious based laws and throwing it back in the faces of Xians and politicians who overstep their boundaries. That's some Grade-A entertainment right there.

Also, we Discordians consider modern Satanists to be our erstwhile cousins in cloth.

[Indure]

Originally posted by meowbeast:

Originally posted by Indure:

Probably the same reasoning why people in our world worship satan.

Shar worshipers are generally outcasts that were persecuted by humans and society, so it is perfectly reasonable for them to trade death and destruction of humans for power. "The Child Who is Not Embraced by the Village Will Burn it Down to Feel its Warmth."

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

LOL, not sure why you would take offense, Satan's rap sheet is no different than Shar's. He is the embodiment of evil via religions that believe in God, like Shar is the embodiment of evil from religions that believe in Selune. It doesn't really matter what their followers do or represent, since like Shar worshippers, many could argue that Satan worshippers have been fooled into misunderstanding the nature of their deity.

I don't believe in any of it, but there are people that self proclaim to be theistic Satanists, believing and worshipping the supernatural deity of Satan. So when the OP wonders how could someone worship Shar, its easy ... in real life there are people who worship evil deities.

[meowbeast]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Originally posted by meowbeast:

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

Many Satanists also don't believe in the literal existence of Satan as a deity or entity of any kind - it's more of a reactionary blowback to Xianity. I once counted myself among them, but I never joined a Church or group of other Satanists, and I only called myself one for a few short years before I found Our Lady of Hee Haws, Eris Discordia (Hail Eris, fNoRD). Satanism is just a flavor of ultra-humanism, where the status of humanity is placed above that of any (real or perceived) deity. It's about self-empowerment, rather than subservience. They also talk a lot about being personally responsible for everything one does.

Mostly, I get a HUGE kick out of how they troll Xians, particularly in deeply religious places like Florida, where they're constantly challenging all religious based laws and throwing it back in the faces of Xians and politicians who overstep their boundaries. That's some Grade-A entertainment right there.

Also, we Discordians consider modern Satanists to be our erstwhile cousins in cloth.

I didn't know that. haha.

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by meowbeast:

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

LOL, not sure why you would take offense, Satan's rap sheet is no different than Shar's. He is the embodiment of evil via religions that believe in God, like Shar is the embodiment of evil from religions that believe in Selune. It doesn't really matter what their followers do or represent, since like Shar worshippers, many could argue that Satan worshippers have been fooled into misunderstanding the nature of their deity.

I don't believe in any of it, but there are people that self proclaim to be theistic Satanists, believing and worshipping the supernatural deity of Satan.

No offense taken. I'm purely secular. Collecting socks for homeless people is hardly the embodiment of evil. Maybe there are angsty teenagers who "worship" satan as a living deity, but I'm sure they also shop at Hot Topic and vape. There are few institutions that have done as much harm to the world as organized religion. I disagree with you about people being fooled about the nature of Satan because a made-up demigod of an offshoot of Christianity doesn't have a nature at all. It sounds like you literally believe Satan exists. Are you sure you're not a satanist?

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Trigger Warning for those loyal to their Religion, the following is my opinion and WILL trigger you as blasphemous:

Based on the dialogue in BG3 Shar sounds more like the Devil from the Bible, but not in the way you're thinking.
Adam and Eve supposedly fell out of grace with God because they ate from the apple of Eden. Which represented Knowledge. In this context, God was forbidding Humans from obtaining Knowledge, while the snake (the devil) was trying to enlighten them.
If you look at the religions, Christianity and well, lets face it, most every other religion, is all about "what thou shall not do." They are religions designed to control people, manipulate them, and direct them into accomplishing the agenda of the leader whether it be a pope priest or what have you.

So what this sounds like, is tyranny. You should live in fear of God. You shouldn't eat this, dont say that, and definitely dont do or think this. Its absolute control. Take no other god. do not deny me or burn in h forever. These sound like commandments from an evil nazi dictator, not a loving God.

So. If you look at it like that, the Devil becomes the resistance, and in fact thats what the Bible tells us anyway. He was a renegade who didn't like how God was treating people, didnt agree, and acted against him. Of course he's painted as the villain, but after some of the things God had done to his followers its easy to see why not everyone was on board. Look at humans today in 2022, most people dont agree 100% with the bible or Gods actions, but almost all the Christians and other religions with similar religious texts swear by their Lords out of fear and because "you have to or else". Thats stockholme syndrome and terrorism.

Now. I will say, obviously, people will defend their religion, and call this blasphemous. People will interpet it differently. But this interpretation i've arrived it came from going to church, and reading the bible myself. I'm not the only one who saw some of these things as shady.

So, to get to the point, I think Shar is more like lucifer. She is the warden of secrets, and encourages her children to seek them out, to enlighten themselves. The other cults view this as evil just as God and Christians viewed Adam and Eve seeking knowledge as evil.

Shar is known as the secret keeper. But actually. She's trying to shine the light on secrets.

now, this entire thing falls apart if you don't think the apple represented knowledge.
And you could easily debunk this if you just wanted to defend such and such position.
But this is -one- interpretation, and Shar makes a lot more sense to me in this context.


You also have to have found the Shar dialogue in bg3 where Shadowheart talks about secrets and what the cult is really all about. Of course. Maybe shes wrong. Maybe we're all wrong. Afterall, none of this even real...right?

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by meowbeast:

You should read up more on the type of work the Church of Satan does before making bigoted claims. The church of Satan does not force it's religion on others and actually helps people. I'm also not aware of any holy wars or ethnic cleansing the Church of Satan has sponsored.

LOL, not sure why you would take offense, Satan's rap sheet is no different than Shar's. He is the embodiment of evil via religions that believe in God, like Shar is the embodiment of evil from religions that believe in Selune. It doesn't really matter what their followers do or represent, since like Shar worshippers, many could argue that Satan worshippers have been fooled into misunderstanding the nature of their deity.

I don't believe in any of it, but there are people that self proclaim to be theistic Satanists, believing and worshipping the supernatural deity of Satan. So when the OP wonders how could someone worship Shar, its easy ... in real life there are people who worship evil deities.

If you've read the lore behind the origin of Shar and Selune, you'd know that Shar is more like a manifestation of the primal Void that just wants to return to it's original, nascent state - nothingness.

Shar and Selune are the oldest gods in this mythos, after Lord Ao. They are darkness and light, and if you buy into the Dark Moon Heresy, they are one and the same goddess.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Moon_heresy

It's like Selune and Shar woke up in the primal chaos, and Selune was all like, "Rise and shine sleepy head! Time for a healthy brkfst!", and Shar was all like, "Ughh, five more minutes mom!!!" and tried to make the whole universe go black to sleep.

Point is, it wouldn't be hard to convince someone of this perspective. I mean, you ask them, "Why existence rather than non-existence?", and the spend the next ten years debating with them the virtue of not existing at all.

Philosophies like that exist in our real world, and they're not "evil", regardless of how you personally view their perspective.

Of course, from the perspective of everything that likes existing...this is a conflict in values. It doesn't necessarily make either perspective more or less evil or good than the other, it just emphasizes the conflict because obviously one side isn't going to get what they want.

As existential beings, naturally we tend to side with the "existence is gud" side...but, from another perspective (Shar's specifically), that's not the case. She just wants to turn ALL the lights off, so she can go back to sleep, and damn anyone who disagrees with her.

If you've been following my logic in this discourse, then you can see how the cult itself might begin to indoctrinate people, convincing them of Shar's noble intentions in returning the universe to a state of non-existence. And sometimes people are brought in young, when they are impressionable and vulnerable.

That's the thing about cults, they don't see themselves as evil]/i]. Very few actual moustache twirling villains, and more that there are just people who have really warped sense of values and priorities.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Jiren, The Strongest:

So, to get to the point, I think Shar is more like lucifer. She is the warden of secrets, and encourages her children to seek them out, to enlighten themselves. The other cults view this as evil just as God and Christians viewed Adam and Eve seeking knowledge as evil.

Shar is known as the secret keeper. But actually. She's trying to shine the light on secrets.

You also have to have found the Shar dialogue in bg3 where Shadowheart talks about secrets and what the cult is really all about. Of course. Maybe shes wrong. Maybe we're all wrong. Afterall, none of this even real...right?

Secrets are one part of Shar - but read this from the Forgotten Realms wiki:

The very existence of Shar was paradoxical; the Nightbringer was brought into existence by the creation of Realmspace, but was the living embodiment of the void, the perfect nothing that existed before she was born. The emptiness that she originally reflected had itself been erased at the start of time, and she longed to return to the ancient calm of nonexistence. By her very nature, Shar was defined by loss, the foolishness of hope, and the basic principle that life was a joke.

You see, Shar and Selune were created at the same time, born from the same womb, cut from the same cloth:

According to one of the most ancient myths of the creation of the world and the heavens, after the universe and its crystal sphere were created by Lord Ao, there was naught but the primordial essence, the protoplasmic raw stuff of existence. Described as chaos and timeless nothingness, the sphere was filled with no more than dim misty shadows, neither light nor dark, for such things had not yet separated. (All that moved here were the shadevari, the thirteen lords of shadow, whose origin, whether from elsewhere or from the shadow itself, is unknown.) In time, Shar coalesced from the primordial essence, alongside her twin sister, Selûne. The goddesses were beautiful, identical but polar opposites, raven-haired and silver-haired, one representing the dark, the other the light in the manner of yin and yang. Yet they were so close they saw themselves as one being, known later as the Two-Faced Goddess or the Sisters-Who-Were-One. They complemented each other and brought order out of the chaos.

Together, they created from the cosmic ether Abeir-Toril and the other heavenly bodies and infused these worlds with life. In the process, they formed the goddess Chauntea (at that time, the embodiment of all matter in Realmspace, later only of the world of Abeir-Toril), whom they worked with to bless the worlds with life. This universe was darkened by the hair and welcoming embrace of Shar and illuminated by the cool radiant face of Selûne. However, there was no fire or heat on any of these bodies. Desiring to nurture life on the worlds that formed her body and limbs, Chauntea asked the Two-Faced Goddess for warmth. Then, for the first time, Shar and Selûne were divided, being of two minds on whether they should let there be more life on the worlds or not.