Witch Bolt is Trash

[Gulabius Jamunius]

Witch bolt is about as low tier of a spell as true strike and both should get homebrewed for the game so that they can be viable. As it currently stands, there is never a reason to cast witch bolt instead of say Chromatic Orb: Lightning. Witch bolt costs an action and a lvl 1 spell slot to cast dealing 1d12 lightning damage. It also uses concentration and creates a tether between the caster and target that can be activated with 100% hit chance for 1d12 damage with an action every turn. The problem with witch bolt is that it does very little damage upfront compared to other spells of equal level and requires concentration for equally small damage. The only benefit is that it can't "miss" every consecutive turn once you've activated it succesfully. It's also piss poor in terms of action economy. Doing 1d12 per turn on one target is far too slow when you only have 4 characters at all times. Wasting the concentration of your spell caster on witch bolt when you can use that concentration for literally anything else (like flaming sphere, enlarge/reduce, cloud of daggers) is incredibly weak. Even if you upcast witch bolt, only the initial hit does 2d12 damage while activating the link remains 1d12. This spell is garbage in every possible way.

One way they could buff witch bolt is to keep the initial cast the same but let you activate the link for a bonus action every following turn instead of the full action it usually requires. This would allow the spellcaster to still contribute to the fight and cast other spells with their action. Of course, witch bolt would still use concentration, but I think this buff would help justify it.

Second way they could buff witch bolt is by keeping it an action but making it so upcasting the spell not only does an extra 1d12 damage per spell level but reactivating also does. So lvl 2 witch bolt does 2d12 on hit and 2d12 when reactivating as well (it currently stays at 1d12). I also toyed with the idea that every consecutive turn you reactivate witch bolt and maintain concentration the spell increases in potency. Maybe every time witch bolt is reactivated it does additional damage equal to your intelligence modifier on top of the damage roll and stacks. For example if you have 16 intelligence, first time does 1d12, then 1d12 +3, then 1d12 +6, and so on and so on. This would be a cool change because it rewards the player for maintaining concentration for many turns at a much better opportunity cost considering how strong the other concentration spells are. It also increases the minimum damage threshold so you don't get trolled when you concentrate on witch bolt for 3-4 turns and roll 1 for damage.

[Indure]

In 5e Witch Bolt is pretty bad and I agree that moving its secondary attacks to a bonus action would make the spell more functional, but this isn't 5e ... its BG3.

Targets that are wet gain vulnerability to lightning (double damage) and puddles get electrified (1d4 bonus damage). This alone can magnify Witch Bolt to a strong skill if properly setup.

But on something like a a level 6 Tempest Cleric (have to use a feat to get Witch Bolt); a maximized Witch bolt (channel divinity) to a wet target is 2 x 3d12(maximized) = 72 flat damage, plus a 10ft push. And they can keep doing it every turn for an average of 13 unavoidable damage and 10ft push, plus whatever they are doing with their spirit weapon.

Although at level 5 tempest clerics already have Call Lightning which will outclass Witch Bolt in anything that has multiple targets.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Indure:

In 5e Witch Bolt is pretty bad and I agree that moving its secondary attacks to a bonus action would make the spell more functional, but this isn't 5e ... its BG3.

Targets that are wet gain vulnerability to lightning (double damage) and puddles get electrified (1d4 bonus damage). This alone can magnify Witch Bolt to a strong skill if properly setup.

yeah that was the edge case before, it made it ok but then homebrewed chromatic orb showed up and it bacame more or less useless again....due to concetration slot being so precious.... an Issue in 5e as is... makes lots of spells just gather dust.

[Indure]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by Indure:

In 5e Witch Bolt is pretty bad and I agree that moving its secondary attacks to a bonus action would make the spell more functional, but this isn't 5e ... its BG3.

Targets that are wet gain vulnerability to lightning (double damage) and puddles get electrified (1d4 bonus damage). This alone can magnify Witch Bolt to a strong skill if properly setup.

yeah that was the edge case before, it made it ok but then homebrewed chromatic orb showed up and it bacame more or less useless again....due to concetration slot being so precious.... an Issue in 5e as is... makes lots of spells just gather dust.

I don't fully understand your point.

From my understanding Chromatic Orb's (CO) changes made it a 2d8 + 1d4 electric surface. Witch Bolt (WB) is a 1d12. At level 3, if the target is standing in water the electric surface is already created, so it is a 3d8 vs 2d12 which is identical average damage.

The only difference between WB and CO is concentration which is why often CO is more flexible, but in terms of damage on wet targets WB is one of your more cost effective options if you don't have other concentrations that need to be applied. Like I said before, it isn't maybe the best option for a wizard, but could be valuable on a draconic sorcerer (for twinning and bonus damage), warlock (spell slot efficiency) or tempest cleric (lightning source for pushing).

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I sorta want to build a Devil's Sight/Witch Bolt Warlock now.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

I sorta want to build a Devil's Sight/Witch Bolt Warlock now.

What does that even look like?

[Louis]

Yeah witchbolt should be buffed, I've sent feedback about it before but i'll support your post anyway. Imo one problem is concentration, which is way too easily broken in general, and then the second is the fact Witchbolt scales very poorly with higher spell ranks as you mentioned. I think both those things should be changed though I like your bonus action change as well.

[jinath715]

It's not that Witch Bolt sucks, it's just that almost everything else is better. They need to nerf Chromatic Orb. It is way too OP as it currently is.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by dolby:

yeah that was the edge case before, it made it ok but then homebrewed chromatic orb showed up and it bacame more or less useless again....due to concetration slot being so precious.... an Issue in 5e as is... makes lots of spells just gather dust.

I don't fully understand your point.

From my understanding Chromatic Orb's (CO) changes made it a 2d8 + 1d4 electric surface. Witch Bolt (WB) is a 1d12. At level 3, if the target is standing in water the electric surface is already created, so it is a 3d8 vs 2d12 which is identical average damage.

The only difference between WB and CO is concentration which is why often CO is more flexible, but in terms of damage on wet targets WB is one of your more cost effective options if you don't have other concentrations that need to be applied. Like I said before, it isn't maybe the best option for a wizard, but could be valuable on a draconic sorcerer (for twinning and bonus damage), warlock (spell slot efficiency) or tempest cleric (lightning source for pushing).

Big if the water part... and even with it...Not to mention i think it's ugly spell.
Why woudn't i use concentration for other things? i mean it's the most precious thing. To not have it used means you are playing weird if not down right bad...

That fact alone makes the whole spell crap compared to Chromatic Orb in my book...
I mean you can use it if you want but i sure have better use for that concentration.

You gonna say to me that you rather have WB and have no haste where on the other side you can have haste on and use CO at the same time and you dont have to bother with water at all...

There is no comparison but ok not like i give a ♥♥♥♥ anymore... it's whatever if people like it fine but i'm sure if we could looked numbers for spell casts in EA WB would be down at the bottom and we all know why...NOt like this is the first thread about this topic we had a few in the past.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by jinath715:

It's not that Witch Bolt sucks, it's just that almost everything else is better. They need to nerf Chromatic Orb. It is way too OP as it currently is.

Chromatic Orb isn't even that good, I wouldn't even begin to call it overpowered. It certainly doesn't need to be nerfed. What is it overpowered compared to, other than Witch Bolt?

You'd be consistently better off using Magic Missile for damage, or just a utility spell. Unless you're up against an enemy with a notably low AC or a specific damage vulnerability that Chromatic Orb can exploit, of course.

[stimpatch]

I had some success with it by using it to snipe enemies from stealth. Sneak up, apply the spell, drop back into stealth. Next action activate, then drop back into stealth.

One caveat though: You could do the same thing with just about any ranged weapon and likely get way better damage. On the upside of course you don't miss, and if you plan your movement carefully you can even abuse LOS because the connection clips through obstructions.

I actually wanted to mess around with getting an entire party setup for Witchbolt at some point just for science. Never got around to it though.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by jinath715:

It's not that Witch Bolt sucks, it's just that almost everything else is better. They need to nerf Chromatic Orb. It is way too OP as it currently is.

Chromatic Orb isn't even that good

Sure lol this made me chuckle... Leave it for us then. But if for some reason you want to come to the big boys table you need it cos It's basically a swiss army knife that shoots cool looking plasma orbs that make WB useless.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by dolby:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Chromatic Orb isn't even that good

Sure lol this made me chuckle... Leave it for us then. But if for some reason you want to come to the big boys table you need it cos It's basically a swiss army knife that shoots cool looking plasma orbs that make WB useless.

Oh come on man, don't do the thing where you cut out the context from the quote. I substantiated my claim.

Obviously yes, it's a lot better than Witch Bolt. Just about anything is. But I'd take Magic Missile over it in most cases.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by dolby:

Sure lol this made me chuckle... Leave it for us then. But if for some reason you want to come to the big boys table you need it cos It's basically a swiss army knife that shoots cool looking plasma orbs that make WB useless.

Oh come on man, don't do the thing where you cut out the context from the quote. I substantiated my claim.

Obviously yes, it's a lot better than Witch Bolt. Just about anything is. But I'd take Magic Missile over it in most cases.

Well, WB is the topic so i jumped to conclusion my bad, i guess i was to fast with my post and yes Magic Missile is op. But it's one of if not the most iconic spell made same as fireball i guess.

It's nice to know and see that those damage numbers go off for sure. No one likes spells that do nothing or attacks that do nothing.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by Tinball:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Chromatic Orb isn't even that good, I wouldn't even begin to call it overpowered. It certainly doesn't need to be nerfed. What is it overpowered compared to, other than Witch Bolt?

You'd be consistently better off using Magic Missile for damage, or just a utility spell. Unless you're up against an enemy with a notably low AC or a specific damage vulnerability that Chromatic Orb can exploit, of course.

CO + Sorc + Twin spell = OP. You can rock 6d8 using a 1st level slot. Sure MM is always going to hit, but the damage potential for CO is quite powerful for a first level spell. There is a reason they require an expensive spell component. (if your table uses components that is).

But yes, back on topic - Witch bolt is woke trash. I blame the Twitter mob..

Oh, good call. I'm thinking in Wizard terms. Sorcerers being able to twin it would make Chromatic Orb better than Magic Missile for them, very true.

Still wouldn't necessarily say OP, but I take your meaning.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Tinball:

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Chromatic Orb isn't even that good, I wouldn't even begin to call it overpowered. It certainly doesn't need to be nerfed. What is it overpowered compared to, other than Witch Bolt?

You'd be consistently better off using Magic Missile for damage, or just a utility spell. Unless you're up against an enemy with a notably low AC or a specific damage vulnerability that Chromatic Orb can exploit, of course.

CO + Sorc + Twin spell = OP. You can rock 6d8 using a 1st level slot. Sure MM is always going to hit, but the damage potential for CO is quite powerful for a first level spell. There is a reason they require an expensive spell component. (if your table uses components that is).

But yes, back on topic - Witch bolt is woke trash. I blame the Twitter mob..

Technically, a spell slot and a sorcery point, which is almost equivalent to using two spell slots.

I think the reason WB is so terrible is that you rarely get the full potential of it's damage.

I mean, think about it. If you got 10d12 from every cast, it would outclass every other 1st level spell in terms of damage, and many other 2nd and 3rd level spells too.

WB is supposed to be a boss killer - it's sustained DPR that automatically hits (assuming initial casting hits) every round, and lasts for 10 rounds on 1 spell slot. That's 1 spell slot to deal 10d12 of damage. MM only deals 3d4 for the same spell slot.

But, like I pointed out, most of the time you're not going to get all of that damage, either because your target is dead long before 10 rounds is up, or because you got hit and lost concentration.

Which is why I think the ability to change targets would be nice. Instead of placing the WB condition on the target, it should place it on the caster instead, and as long as you have the WB condition (for 10 rounds, unless you lose concentration), you can 'activate' the WB on any target you can see - but it's only 'automatic' damage if you activate it on a target that's already taking it. So, if you switch targets, then you have to make a new attack roll.

This would keep it from being too OP (you're going to miss sometimes, so switching targets carries risk), but also gives you a chance at getting more DPR out of it than you can currently.