Women (players) in RPGs

[God King 069]

This isn't for the SJWs. But for the women who play, do you think that you get the same experience (character look/feel whether that's a feeling of being powerful, gear option look/feel, etc.) as you go through the story as guys? Also do you feel that you want your experience to be based on a real world view of women or something more of an imagined world view? How about for women NPCs?

Do you feel that this question even being posed is a bit messed up in that such differences have to be pointed out?

[Beta Ray Shill]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Laurone:

Is this a joke ? Seriously why bring the "attractivity" here ? It has nothing to do with the exchange. Plus, even if taste in beauty are cultural, there are also *heavily* personnal.

can say if I want to cry or laugh ... Where to start ?!

Why bring your made up word 'atractivity' into play? Eh, it's because it's scientifically proven mate. NCBI? You know that thing? Here's a nice study of it[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

You're laughing at science then? Good for you chief. Hope that works out in the old game of life department. Me - I just accept science for what it is. And I think anyone that doesn't is a bit bats**t. But look - I eagerly await your response to that.

Basically, you're saying women can only equal men if they are physically on the same level - which they never can be, whether 'trained' or otherwise. You cannot put a male and female MMA fighter in a cage and expect the female to win - she would be put in hospital, and likely have injuries that would disable her for life.

Same is true of boxing.

And any sport in terms of 'fair sportmanship'. Even non-contact, like tennis. Unless you're actually delusional enough to think that these sports can be 'mixed' and it would still be fair?

Really?

I bring attractiveness into play, because I'm saying there's nothing wrong with being feminine. Ie non-muscular. You're re-enforcing the completely wrong idea that women need to be as muscular as men to be 'equal'. I'm not.

They never had to be.

It's not like I use my muscles to get by, even though I'm a gym-fanatatic and a pretty big dude.

I got by on education and am now consistently earning six figures, whatever contract I earn.

I know plenty of women that are doing the same. Using their brains, basically.

Women are physically weaker than men. Very few have the capacity to beat a male physically in a fight. But it doesn't matter.

However, denying this is insane. And you're basically saying that there should be no male/female sports anymore. How do you think it will end up if it's all going to be 'mixed' in future?

Most stupid thing I've ever read. Yeah, let's mix up every sport people! It'll work out just great.

Separate point: there's a reason women are campaigning against trans females being 'women'. They have a physical and chemical advantage over biological women. It's proven by biology. Do you want to argue against a test tube?

I'd like to hear your stats around that lol.

[Quillithe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rance-sama:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Tinball:

Gender based attributes? How about the "Harlot Table" - 1e at its finest! But hey, I'm just a 'SJW' for pointing out such facts.

00 – 10 Slovenly trull
11 – 25 Brazen strumpet
26 – 35 Cheap trollop
36 – 50 Typical streetwalker
51 – 65 Saucy tart
66 – 75 Wanton wench
76 – 85 Expensive doxy
86 – 90 Haughty courtesan
91 – 92 Aged madam
93 – 94 Wealthy procuress
95 – 98 Sly pimp
99 – 00 Rich panderer

Nothing wrong with that table at all. Prostitutes exist, big deal. If you didn't like it you didn't have to use it.

I don't think anyone's objecting to the existence of prostitutes in their fantasy setting, just questioning if it's important enough to the world to put this table into a 128 page rulebook containing all the rules for D&D. I wouldn't personally consider randomly determining what kind of prostitute I'm hiring a critical game element.

[Rance-sama]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Quillithe:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rance-sama:

Nothing wrong with that table at all. Prostitutes exist, big deal. If you didn't like it you didn't have to use it.

I don't think anyone's objecting to the existence of prostitutes in their fantasy setting, just questioning if it's important enough to the world to put this table into a 128 page rulebook containing all the rules for D&D. I wouldn't personally consider randomly determining what kind of prostitute I'm hiring a critical game element.

I don't assume reasonable people are objecting to the existence of prostitutes in a fantasy setting that the DM has full creative control to modify, but the guy I was responding to was using it as an example of why he thinks D&D was exclusionary to everyone except le ebil huwite male, so yeah he was objecting to it.

And why not include it? It's a random table, random tables are useful. Gygax was a creative, he dreamed it up and thought it would be fun :/

[Quillithe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rance-sama:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Quillithe:

I don't think anyone's objecting to the existence of prostitutes in their fantasy setting, just questioning if it's important enough to the world to put this table into a 128 page rulebook containing all the rules for D&D. I wouldn't personally consider randomly determining what kind of prostitute I'm hiring a critical game element.

I don't assume reasonable people are objecting to the existence of prostitutes in a fantasy setting that the DM has full creative control to modify, but the guy I was responding to was using it as an example of why he thinks D&D was exclusionary to everyone except le ebil huwite male, so yeah he was objecting to it.

And why not include it? It's a random table, random tables are useful. Gygax was a creative, he dreamed it up and thought it would be fun :/

Again, he was not using the existence of prostitutes as evidence that D&D was exclusionary. But I can't see a reasonable person attempting to deny that the existence of this table indicates a uneven distribution in the genders of players and designers.

Why not include it? Well, chairs exist. Should there be a table to generate the type of chair when you sit down? When you meet a male character in an inn, should you roll to determine how 'skillful' he is with his tongue? It's a clear statement that this is considered important - or more likely, someone was enjoying collecting a list of ways to describe prostitutes.

[Raï 𓆣]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian Sirith:

Interesting view. Thanks for sharing.

I’m also pro differences being acknowledged in games as long as the player doesn’t feel harassed or misses out on the experience. An all female party being considered witches sounds cool. Wonder if you could use it to your advantage like the Discworld witches do. ‘You have 3 minutes to do what I tell you or else...’

Yea absolutely! I wouldn't want anyone to feel harassed or locked out at all either.

Darklands is an exception (and perhaps a poor example because of it!), because there's a serious disadvantage to being branded a witch. The monastary will refuse entry or help (with insults), as a result your party is locked out from an important part of gameplay early on.

[Brian Sirith]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von 🜍:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian Sirith:

Interesting view. Thanks for sharing.

I’m also pro differences being acknowledged in games as long as the player doesn’t feel harassed or misses out on the experience. An all female party being considered witches sounds cool. Wonder if you could use it to your advantage like the Discworld witches do. ‘You have 3 minutes to do what I tell you or else...’

Yea absolutely! I wouldn't want anyone to feel harassed or locked out at all either.

Darklands is an exception (and perhaps a poor example because of it!), because there's a serious disadvantage to being branded a witch. The monastary will refuse entry or help (with insults), as a result your party is locked out from an important part of gameplay early on.

Heh. To be honest the way you described it I’d be tempted to make a party of ‘witches’ monastery be damned. Just to take on some extra challenge :).

[Brian Sirith]

Oh as to the prostitute table those are very useful in TT. A good adventurer has to plan his/her/their weekly finances accordingly. And not get taken in by the DMs potentially over bloated pricing. 40 gold? For 30m? You gotta be kidding me!

Also contraception: availability and pricing. Just to make sure the DM doesn’t throw any unpleasant surprises your way.

And all those are currently available in PF. Bless them!

[Brian Sirith]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Brian Sirith:

Oh as to the prostitute table those are very useful in TT. A good adventurer has to plan his/her/their weekly finances accordingly.

Also contraception: availability and pricing. Just to make sure the DM doesn’t throw any unpleasant surprises your way.

https://www.globalnerdy.com/2008/03/05/the-random-harlot-table-from-the-original-dungeon-masters-guide/
It's an encounter design, not really for adventurers to be one of them.

More explanation about the subject:
https://www.enworld.org/threads/harlot-table-was-it-really-in-d-d.357630/

Basically it exists there for sake of immersion.

Oh… meh. I’ve enjoyed playing adventurers that regularly hire… entertainment services and am currently creating a character that provides them.

This aspect is sooo underrated

[Brian Sirith]

Makes sense

[Quillithe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Quillithe:

Again, he was not using the existence of prostitutes as evidence that D&D was exclusionary. But I can't see a reasonable person attempting to deny that the existence of this table indicates a uneven distribution in the genders of players and designers.

Why not include it? Well, chairs exist. Should there be a table to generate the type of chair when you sit down? When you meet a male character in an inn, should you roll to determine how 'skillful' he is with his tongue? It's a clear statement that this is considered important - or more likely, someone was enjoying collecting a list of ways to describe prostitutes.

if you were roleplaying chairs then there would be table for chairs.
Those tables exists to make it easier for character creation or randomize it. They aren't actual hardwritten rules that you have to be that type of prostitute. Also men can be prostitutes as well.

The table isn't for roleplaying as prostitutes, it's for encountering them and there's no particular point for all the distinctions except for someone enjoying making a list of ways to describe female prostitutes. Yes, men can be prostitutes, but that list is specifically not about male prostitutes.

Also keep in mind this is in 128 pages describing literally all the rules of D&D, not in some supplemental book.

[Brian Sirith]

@Tinball I got it. Just more interested in spicing up my adventures than any social aspect.

[Quillithe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Quillithe:

The table isn't for roleplaying as prostitutes, it's for encountering them and there's no particular point for all the distinctions except for someone enjoying making a list of ways to describe female prostitutes. Yes, men can be prostitutes, but that list is specifically not about male prostitutes.

Also keep in mind this is in 128 pages describing literally all the rules of D&D, not in some supplemental book.

I literally pointed it out. You are repeating me right now.

Ok, guess I'm done talking to you if you're either openly a troll or incapable of understanding English, but your post I responded to was literally the opposite of my quote above.


Also nonsense like:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

" D&D was very popular by the time 1e was released."
Not really let's be honest here... DnD actually became popular with 5e. Before it was only known by unpopular kids in school who had intrest in geeky stuff.

What? I mean, it's more popular now, sure, but I think it's safe to say it was at least fairly popular by the 80's when people started being concerned about it leading children to Satanism and witchcraft. It wasn't mainstream sure, but it still isn't really.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

"Why is there not a harlot table for males?"
How do you know there isn't?

Just gonna go ahead and guess he's read the 1e rulebook? I personally haven't, but if there's one in there it should be pretty easy to point out.

[Rance-sama]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Quillithe:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rance-sama:

I don't assume reasonable people are objecting to the existence of prostitutes in a fantasy setting that the DM has full creative control to modify, but the guy I was responding to was using it as an example of why he thinks D&D was exclusionary to everyone except le ebil huwite male, so yeah he was objecting to it.

And why not include it? It's a random table, random tables are useful. Gygax was a creative, he dreamed it up and thought it would be fun :/

Again, he was not using the existence of prostitutes as evidence that D&D was exclusionary. But I can't see a reasonable person attempting to deny that the existence of this table indicates a uneven distribution in the genders of players and designers.

Why not include it? Well, chairs exist. Should there be a table to generate the type of chair when you sit down? When you meet a male character in an inn, should you roll to determine how 'skillful' he is with his tongue? It's a clear statement that this is considered important - or more likely, someone was enjoying collecting a list of ways to describe prostitutes.

Yeah bro, like I said, Gygax included it because it is fun, making a random table for chairs is pointless and not fun so that's kind of a dumb example.
I don't see how the genders of the designers is relevant at all, everyone has always been free to design tabletop games so there was never any exclusion there.
Same with players, no one has ever been excluded from picking up the hobby of tabletop gaming, and the existence of an optional random table for generating prostitutes certainly hasn't stopped anyone.

[dulany67]

Women and PoC may very well have self-excluded from D&D in the early days, but they don't now so things change.

[Quillithe]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

You're way too busy in trying to attacking me and painting strawman.

"What? I mean, it's more popular now, sure, but I think it's safe to say it was at least fairly popular by the 80's when people started being concerned about it leading children to Satanism and witchcraft. It wasn't mainstream sure, but it still isn't really."
Stereotypes doesn't come out of nowhere and even among DnD players this was the stereotype. I'm not talking about satanism or witchcraft. Talking about popularity. 5e brought the game to the mainstream and it was no longer embarrasing to play it.
As I said before, it was game for social outcasts to practice their social skills in environment of power fantasy. Popular kids had better things to do at the time.

Saying something is popular is different from saying something is what 'popular kids' did. D&D was popular well before 5e, and although I'm too old to know what the popular kids are doing now, I'm betting it still isn't D&D too often.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pumis:

"Just gonna go ahead and guess he's read the 1e rulebook? I personally haven't, but if there's one in there it should be pretty easy to point out."
If that would be the case he wouldn't have used that tabled out of context but understood that it really wasn't what he was advertising it to be. It was just random encounter related to immersion, nothing more and nothing less. I even linked forum post where they talked about the issue and old veterans answered to the question. The harlot thing is just now meme in DnD so it's easy to anyone to mention it without actually playing 1e.

What was he advertising it to be, besides evidence that the game was written by and generally for a specific audience? Or do you really think that the table would exist if D&D had been a game developed by women with a player base that was 99% young girls?

I don't think anyone in this thread is offended by the table or prostitutes or whatever (I don't know, maybe someone is), but it's a pretty goofy table that's evidence of who the game was designed for.