I noticed than now if you use charm in conversation it can break the game

[private1028]

The new ability to get 2 dice to roll by using charm in conversation breaks the game. When the charm spell ends the NPCs automatically turn hostile. I discovered that during the rescue for the Duke. I was trying to open the blocked when the charm spell ended and the soldiers all turned hostile. I think this is a game breaker. Not sure it can be fixed.

Why even have the dialogue option? It seems unnecessary and it ends with the NPCs wanting to kill you for helping them.

[Gingermonkey]

I mean, thats how the spell works. It tells you the target knows they've been charmed by you when it ends.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

I mean, thats how the spell works. It tells you the target knows they've been charmed by you when it ends.

This^ you gotta read that description in spells. IF you want them to not be hostile i would Suggest the cantrip "friendship" Gives you advantage all the same, however it would need to be on the person you use to do dialogues im pretty sure. You can also have any side character with Guidance to offer a d4 in pretty much everything, very useful.

[private1028]

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

I mean, thats how the spell works. It tells you the target knows they've been charmed by you when it ends.

The spell yes. But Charisma isn't a spell. It shouldn't do that and casting shouldn't be possible during dialogue. It should interrupt the dialogue as an attack. This is game mechanic that doesn't work very well.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by private1028:

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

I mean, thats how the spell works. It tells you the target knows they've been charmed by you when it ends.

The spell yes. But Charisma isn't a spell. It shouldn't do that and casting shouldn't be possible during dialogue. It should interrupt the dialogue as an attack. This is game mechanic that doesn't work very well.

Normally in a game you would wanna cast a spell like that as you approached them, but because it would be annoying to guess and cast things all the time, they went with the choice to add spells before a roll. There is all sorts of spells that give you advantage, Charm seems to be the least desirable unless you know that dialogue is gonna lead you to combat either way.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Charm Person is one of the worst spells in the game. It's basically only useful for interrogating prisoners.

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Charm Person is one of the worst spells in the game. It's basically only useful for interrogating prisoners.

Pretty much this. Good on NPCs you’ll never see again, like a guard you’re trying to get past quickly.

Risky. Spell is as intended in BG3 though, this is how it works in tabletop as well

[private1028]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

I mean, thats how the spell works. It tells you the target knows they've been charmed by you when it ends.

This^ you gotta read that description in spells. IF you want them to not be hostile i would Suggest the cantrip "friendship" Gives you advantage all the same, however it would need to be on the person you use to do dialogues im pretty sure. You can also have any side character with Guidance to offer a d4 in pretty much everything, very useful.

You are being allowed to chose during dialogue and the game is treating Charisma as the same as using the Charm spell. All I'm saying is this is messed. There should never be a dialogue option to use charm in conversation because that's an attack. Using Charisma in conversation is supposed to be about making friends and influencing people.

So my argument is that the game probably shouldn't allow magic attacks during conversation. It makes the game difficult to play. You don't have clearly defined boundaries for what constitutes threat. I'm just coming back to the game since patch 4 and this was difficult to discover because you can do it with your companions and they remain friendly. You get the same graphics visual as you do for casting the charm spell.

I think the devs should just treat this as a bug and remove it from dialogue completely. It should always be treated as an attack whether it's an NPC or a companion. Or conversely they can remove it from being a charm spell and just keep using it without creating a hostile reaction in dialogue.

So I guess either make the NPCs the same as companions here or make the companions the same as NPCs.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Nah, it's fine the way it is now.

[private1028]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Charm Person is one of the worst spells in the game. It's basically only useful for interrogating prisoners.

Charm person has verbal and somatic components so it's difficult to imagine allowing someone attempting to cast in front of you while they are talking to you. It just doesn't fit. I just think it makes sense to eliminate it from conversation altogether along with the two dice option or to keep the two dice option and eliminate going hostile.

The original intent of this ability in the Dungeons and Dragon's game was for the individual using the charm spell to cast it on themselves in order to augment their persuasiveness so it never caused hostility when used in conversation. It was treated as an illusion cantrip cast by the speaker on themselves ...

But really so what? All that matters is that companions and NPCs should both react the same to its use. That removes the inconsistency.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by private1028:

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Charm Person is one of the worst spells in the game. It's basically only useful for interrogating prisoners.

Charm person has verbal and somatic components so it's difficult to imagine allowing someone attempting to cast in front of you while they are talking to you. It just doesn't fit. I just think it makes sense to eliminate it from conversation altogether along with the two dice option or to keep the two dice option and eliminate going hostile.

There will always be concessions made for the video game format, and this is one of them.

[private1028]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Originally posted by private1028:

Charm person has verbal and somatic components so it's difficult to imagine allowing someone attempting to cast in front of you while they are talking to you. It just doesn't fit. I just think it makes sense to eliminate it from conversation altogether along with the two dice option or to keep the two dice option and eliminate going hostile.

There will always be concessions made for the video game format, and this is one of them.

Well what wont change for me is being upset because I ruined the quest. Companions don't behave the same as NPCs for this ability. To be fair it should cause combat when used in dialogue with companions. At least then I wouldn't get the carpet pulled out from under me because I mistakenly thought it didn't cause hostility.

[Gingermonkey]

So, i dont remember if its stated in game, but in the actual 5e rules, people you charm will be hostile to you when the spell ends, if they were inclined to be so before you charmed them. Companions are you're "friends", so if anything, when the spell wears off it should give a disapproval id say. Or perhaps them calling you out for charming them, and giving you a warning.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

So, i dont remember if its stated in game, but in the actual 5e rules, people you charm will be hostile to you when the spell ends, if they were inclined to be so before you charmed them. Companions are you're "friends", so if anything, when the spell wears off it should give a disapproval id say. Or perhaps them calling you out for charming them, and giving you a warning.

this

[branmakmuffin]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Charm Person is one of the worst spells in the game. It's basically only useful for interrogating prisoners.

Forcing me to agree with you. Suggestion is even worse, IMO. We had a 10 minute argument about Suggestion in a PnP game not too long ago.

[private1028]

Originally posted by Gingermonkey:

So, i dont remember if its stated in game, but in the actual 5e rules, people you charm will be hostile to you when the spell ends, if they were inclined to be so before you charmed them. Companions are you're "friends", so if anything, when the spell wears off it should give a disapproval id say. Or perhaps them calling you out for charming them, and giving you a warning.

This is the inconsistency I am talking about. It's primary use in dialogue with companions at camp is to prevent a player disapproval for using the Illithid tadpole to look at what the companion is thinking. It's not a hard and fast 5e rule the way it's being used in the game. Maybe a little clarification is in order?

Baldur's Gate 3 seems to use the charm person option in dialogue as an augmentation of the tadpole power to persuade. I'm saying that the Waukeen Inn quest to save the Duke should not have the charm option at the door if the tadpole power isn't being used. Therefore the game should only offer the charm option in dialogue where the tadpole power is used.