Minor issues with throwing

[Mosey]

This isn't regarding throwing people or things so much, mostly just throwing weapons.

It seems that for some reason, when throwing daggers or other finesse weapons it uses your STR stat for to-hit rolls then uses your DEX damage adjustment. Perhaps this is intended, but it really makes throwing a weapon a purely STR attack since throwing a Great Axe or something doesn't seem to bother with DEX at all.

Also, I'm disappointed that as a rogue I cannot throw a dagger at someone and gain a sneak attack. Would be really nice if that was a thing we could do, along with using our DEX score for throwing to-hit rolls on weapons that make sense to do so.

I get that logically STR would dictate your range to some extent on any throw, but using STR for the to-hit roll on all thrown weapons makes a little less sense when DEX is the relevant damage stat for that weapon.

IF the weapon uses STR for the hit-roll, it logically makes no sense to use DEX for the damage roll.

Still, I like the revamp to throwing in general I just think it could use some improvement especially for classes like Thief or even Mages who probably won't see much gain in bumping their STR for a niche attacks to-hit roll in a weapon they are supposedly proficient with.

EDIT:
Turns out daggers only use DEX for damage if DEX is higher than STR. All thrown weapons always use your STR score for to hit, regardless of what kind of weapon it is.

Also you can only use the damage dice for that weapon if it has the thrown tag, any other weapon will probably just do 1D4 bludgeon and/or 1 point of bludgeon damage.

So, at least for now, throwing weapons are purely the domain of STR characters.

[Cirrus]

Originally posted by Mosey:

After a bit more testing this evening, it seems like Daggers will use DEX for damage if DEX is higher than STR, but otherwise it uses STR.

All thrown weapons appear to use STR for the to-hit roll.

A fun little addition to STR characters for flavor, and at least some thrown weapons (javelin, at least) can knockdown at range on occasion. Had it happen while playing on a Cleric, so that's nice.

It also doesn't seem like a whole lot of weapons got the throwing tag, but there are a few. Don't think I saw one that does more than 1D6 yet but still looking.

This breaks 5e rules? Dagger is finesse on ahould use whichever is higher when throwing…

[Mosey]

I'm not entirely sure how throwing works in 5th edition, but it would seem logical that a finesse weapon would use DEX for to-hit and damage if DEX is the higher stat.

I can see STR making sense for the range of the weapon, but when testing last night I honestly didn't notice a big difference on range between a mage with 8 STR and a cleric with a 16 STR so I'm not convinced STR is even used to determine range of thrown weapons.

[Mosey]

Also just figured out that thrown weapons are, probably mistakenly, applying fall damage to enemies at or around where it hits. From high ground it does quite a bit of damage.

[TheBlueFox]

TECHNICALLY *Presses glasses up bridge of nose*

Any weapon that does not have the "thrown" property is thrown as an Improvised weapon.

Improvised weapons are thrown as if making a "ranged weapon attack"

Ranged weapons use Dexterity for their attack and damage.

Therefor, throwing a table, a concrete bust of Abraham Lincoln, A Manhole Cover, or a Crate of flamin hot cheetos, is better done by an elf or a halfling and not a beefy barbarian... Provided they can LIFT the object.



Now, How BG3 handles this I'll need to do a deep dive and do some testing.

[Mosey]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Now, How BG3 handles this I'll need to do a deep dive and do some testing.

Not as interested in objects, but it appears random thrown objects do a flat unmodified 1D4 bludgeoning here.

Throwing a greataxe is using improvised weapon rules since it counts as an object rather than a weapon hence the 1 or potentially 1D4 bludgeoning.

That was on barbarian with 16 STR, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't getting STR bonus to it or DEX bonus either. May still get the falling damage that's being applied if thrown from height, but honestly haven't tried. Thrown weapons certainly do, and so do thrown people it seems.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Mosey:

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Now, How BG3 handles this I'll need to do a deep dive and do some testing.

Not as interested in objects, but it appears random thrown objects do a flat unmodified 1D4 bludgeoning here.

Throwing a greataxe is using improvised weapon rules since it counts as an object rather than a weapon hence the 1 or potentially 1D4 bludgeoning.

well i don't know about the falling damage so far it was normal..

BUt i do remember reading somewhere that normal throwing items do damage based on wight and yeah it was 1d4 a few patchs back so the whole the heavier they are the more damage they do wasn't working yet... but didn't test it out in this patch so ... so far i'm only throwing stuff with throw tag. The range looks the same as for bows and crossbows abit to much if you ask me but ok. and +2 archery doesn't work with axes hehe

[Mosey]

Originally posted by dolby:

and +2 archery doesn't work with axes hehe

True, neither do most other things it seems.

Also a little disappointing that thrown spears use the 1D6 die and not the 1D8. I mean, I guess it makes sense but at the same time it would be nice to be slightly better than a short bow. I feel like range should be less for thrown, and damage should be very slightly higher (with the fall damage removed, of course. Surely that isn't intentional?)

All things considered, throwing weapons don't really add a whole lot to most of the classes you might want to pair it with. Can't sneak attack with it, can't use fighter superiority die on it, can't use any ranger path perks, and overall not very high damage without the high ground fall damage glitch.

Fun for STR cleric/fighter types that want to ignore DEX completely but otherwise not very useful. A good first pass, for sure, but needs improvement and fine tuning.

[guard65]

I just pulled this out of the new config files for throw. Interesting info on thrown objects, mostly on SpellSuccess and ThrowableTargetConditions.

new entry "Throw_Throw"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Throw"
data "SpellProperties" "GROUND:DealDamage(1,Bludgeoning)"
data "TargetFloor" "-1"
data "TargetRadius" "ThrownObjectRange"
data "AreaRadius" "1"
data "SpellRoll" "Attack(AttackType.MeleeUnarmedAttack)"
data "SpellSuccess" "TARGET:IF(IsLightThrownObject(context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):DealDamage(1,Bludgeoning);TARGET:IF(IsMediumThrownObject(context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):DealDamage(1d4,Bludgeoning);TARGET:IF(IsHeavyThrownObject(context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):DealDamage(2d4,Bludgeoning);TARGET:IF(HasWeaponProperty(WeaponProperties.Thrown,context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):DealDamage(ThrownWeapon, ThrownWeaponDamageType);TARGET:IF(HasWeightGreaterThan(context.Target.Weight/2, context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):Force(2);TARGET:IF(HasWeightGreaterThan(context.Target.Weight, context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):ApplyStatus(PRONE,100,1)"
data "TargetConditions" "not Self() and not (not Player(context.Source) and Item())"
data "Template" "a82d0147-9ecd-455a-a9ef-c6d2b8119777"
data "Trajectories" "a82d0147-9ecd-455a-a9ef-c6d2b8119777,48362660-28e7-2af1-62fe-49fc4cb6cc70,bfd9fe10-124d-6b01-53e0-824346204638"
data "Icon" "Action_Throw"
data "DisplayName" "Shared_Throw_Throw_DisplayName"
data "Description" "Shared_Throw_Throw_Description"
data "PreviewCursor" "Cast"
data "CastTextEvent" "Cast"
data "UseCosts" "ActionPoint:1"
data "SpellAnimation" "b1befe57-ee3e-4126-8c9d-3b6cec7eb3f4(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Generic_01_Prepare),,;f2803838-31cf-471b-85d1-92fa2d0eb7c2(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Tiny_01_Antic),,;4be0751c-9fca-4c35-9337-6bf8a321c516(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Tiny_01_Attack),,;86b52093-596c-4054-bb1d-2dbdfcdc4347(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Tiny_01_Recover),,;5b4905be-03fd-42fb-9652-c2d1c772f4d3(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Generic_01_Loop),,;9673b7c5-9928-44ce-ae4f-a85be2683981(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Tiny_01_Dash),,;e81ffae4-6be0-47fd-8502-48b9961004e9(CMBT_Skill_Throw_Generic_01_Cancel),,;,,;,,"
data "VerbalIntent" "Utility"
data "SpellFlags" "InventorySelection;RangeIgnoreVerticalThreshold;IsHarmful;HasHighGroundRangeExtension;IgnoreSilence;IgnoreVisionBlock;AddFallDamageOnLand"
data "SpellActionType" "Throw"
data "HitAnimationType" "PhysicalDamage"
data "ThrowableTargetConditions" "CanThrowWeight() and not Grounded() and not IsItemDisabled() and not HasAttribute('InventoryBound') and (IsMovable() or Character() or Dead()) and CanMove(context.Target, context.Source, false) and (not IsEquipped() or IsEquipmentSlot(EquipmentSlot.MeleeMainHand) or IsEquipmentSlot(EquipmentSlot.MeleeOffHand) or IsEquipmentSlot(EquipmentSlot.Boots))"
data "PrepareEffect" "ede0c318-7f5d-43b4-bc73-a50e0a528d55"
data "SpellAnimationType" "Throwing"

[dolby]

the problem is HasWeightGreaterThan is unknown to us same as :IF(IsHeavyThrownObject...

right now this whole sytem is more like "just for fun" than anything else. Not really a full polished combat system.

At the end it's combined with throw everything and some stuff does no damage at all or 1... i would separate throw weapons from normal improvised throw or whatever it's called where you can throw flowers and whatnot.

Just make a Throw weapons only set like we have for bows and mele weapons and move from there by adding feats and so on.

That way you can at least make weapons like javelins or daggers more usefull and have a good polished stremlined system for throwing.

[guard65]

Just FYI: HasWeightGreaterThan is if the object weight more than the targets weight.

[dolby]

Originally posted by guard65:

Just FYI: HasWeightGreaterThan is if the object weight more than the targets weight.

ow ok it's in this notepad format, so my eyes were hurt and im not a real coder so...

TARGET:IF(HasWeaponProperty(WeaponProperties.Thrown,context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):DealDamage(ThrownWeapon, ThrownWeaponDamageType);

//so what would this do the other two are fine but this force 2? what could that be like extra range push back i guess?
TARGET:IF(HasWeightGreaterThan(context.Target.Weight/2, context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):Force(2);



TARGET:IF(HasWeightGreaterThan(context.Target.Weight, context.HitDescription.ThrownObject)):ApplyStatus(PRONE,100,1)"

[Mosey]

So, basically, all thrown weapons and thrown objects share roughly the same code outside the damage they do.

Light = 1 bludgeoning
Medium = 1D4 bludgeoning
heavy = 2D4 bludgeoning
Weapon = Damage die of weapon

I don't see anything in that wall that indicates that any of these get stat bonuses to damage or to hit, but I can say that weapons in particular do get those.

I can also say I never saw any stat damage bonus when throwing light objects, since they always did 1 point of damage even with high STR.