Warlock Wisdom Saving Throws

[Ghiyan]

I've looked at guides online of how to build your warlock during character creation and they all say to focus on Charisma, then put the rest into dexterity and constitution. I see that Warlocks have Wisdom Saving throw proficiency as well as Charisma. Why wouldn't you want to put points into Wisdom?

[Dragon Master]

Origineel geplaatst door Ghiyan:

So how I'm understanding it is that if something shows as Attack/Save: Wisdom (or anything else). My character is essentially Attacking that certain attribute of the enemy. So they will be relying on their Wisdom in that case to defend against my attack. Is that a decent analogy?

Basically. If it's a Wisdom Saving throw that the spell requires.

If it's an attack (and the spell will say if it's an attack or if a saving throw is needed) then you roll a d20 (20 sided dice) and add your proficiency bonus and your charisma modifier (it goes up +1 for every even number over 10. Basically it goes up on 12, 14, 16, 18 or 20). You are trying to beat their armor class. You meet it or beat it you hit them. That is how Eldritch Blast Works. Then the spell in question has damage dice you roll which determine how much damage you actually do.

If you were to cast a spell that requires a saving throw then you don't need to roll anything. The enemy does. For example, as a cleric if I were to cast the cantrip sacred flame the enemy would have to make a saving throw based on their own stats. Similar to your own saving throws. If they make the save the spell does nothing. If they fail the save then you would roll damage.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter doesn't do damage but if they fail the save it does act as effective crowd control as they will fall to the floor laughing. Dissonant whispers will do psychic damage if they fail the save.

Some spells will do half damage if they make the saving throw and it will say so in the spell description.

[Dremall]

So lets take a look at a 3rd level spell. Fireball. It requires a dexterity save for half damage, and it can be cast by a lot of different classes and specializations.

This spell can be cast by Wizards, Sorcerers, and Light Domain Clerics. Each has a different casting stat. Wizards use Intellect, Sorcerers Charisma, and Clerics Wisdom respectively. This helps determine how hard the spell is to resist.

The formula for calculating this is simple 8 + proficiency bonus + primary stat modifier.
The primary stat modifier is +1 for every two points above 10 in that stat. So a wizard with an intellect of 20 has a +5 a sorcerer with a Charisma of 12 has a +1.

So at level 5 the Wizard's save DC would be 8+3+5=16 the sorcerers would be 8+3+1=12

What does not change is that fireball will always require a dexterity saving throw no matter who casts it. The spell dictates the type of save required. All the caster does is determine how hard the save is to make. In this example it would be easier to save against the sorcerer in this example as his spell dc is lower because he neglected to put points into charisma which is his primary casting stat.

[RealDealBreaker]

Origineel geplaatst door Aven:

This confused me as well.
I don't understand why it would say "Attack/Save" instead of just "Save" or "Saving throw: Wisdom" or something like that
Using the word attack like that is easily interpreted as "the attack stat of the spell"

Every class or subclass that gains access to the spellcasting or pact magic feature (i.e., any character that can cast a spell as opposed to use a spell like ability) has a spell casting ability: a) Int for wizard, EK, AT, and artificer; b) Wis for druid, cleric, and ranger ; c) Cha for sorc, pal, and war. This spellcasting ability is used to determine your spell attack modifier (proficency bonus + ability score modifier for the relevant casting stat for your class, typically +4 or +5 for a level 1 character) AND your spell save DC (8 + proficiency + relevant ability score modifier; typically 12 or 13 for a level 1 character).

Nearly all spells either ask you to make a spell attack (usually specifying melee or ranged, either way the same procedure occurs and the only difference is what may give advantage/disadvantage same as a melee weapon attack vs. ranged weapon attack). For this you simply roll a d20 and add your spell attack modifier. If this result is greater than or equal to the target's AC then you hit. Note, any spell that makes an attack roll ALWAYS targets/is opposed by the target's AC (i.e., you will never roll an attack roll and determine if you hit or miss against a save; though some spells roll a spell attack to hit and have a second part that may force a save on the target and/or nearby targets).

If a spell says something like "The target must succeed a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 radiant damage" then the target roles the called for save and must meet or exceed your spell save DC. The spell will also tell you if the target suffers any damage/effects if they succeed their save.

So TL;DR:
- Spell attack rolls use you spell attack modifier (proficiency + ability score mod) to meet or exceed target AC.
- Other spells force the target to make a specific saving throw. These Saving throws are against your spell save DC (8 + proficiency + Ability score modifier).
- Both spell attack modifier and spell save DC are based of your class/subclass's casting ability as described in the spell casting/pact magic feature.

[philosoraptorgames]

I feel like people are making this more complicated than it needs to be and jumping down rabbit holes they don't need to jump down.

The Attack/Save entry tells you what kind of attack roll or saving throw a spell uses. That's it; it's literally that simple. Maybe I'm too used to D&D conventions to get into OP's mindset, but that... doesn't seem complicated? Certainly nowhere near as much so as some posts are making it out to be.

An attack roll is something you make, and for spells, would usually depend on your spellcasting attribute, rolled against the enemy's AC. A save (or saving throw) is something the *target* rolls, and in the case of 5E, that entry will tell you which of *their* attributes helps them to resist it. The difficulty they're trying to beat, again, depends on (among other factors) your spellcasting ability. For Warlocks this is always Charisma.

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Now, a better question that OP might reasonably ask at this point - "Why do some spells use attack rolls and others saving throws? Why not have just one mechanic for this?" That's a reasonable question for someone new to the game, that honestly, doesn't have a good answer. Things that deal single-target damage usually have attack rolls and everything else usually has saving throws, but, well, notice how much I'm using the word "usually". Honestly it's mostly for historical reasons. They do it that way because they've always done it that way. They tried moving over to one internally consistent mechanic in 4th Edition and, for reasons I never really understood, people hated it. So in 5th Edition they went back to the old way.

In still older editions it did make a real difference - mages generally sucked at making attack rolls in 20th century versions of D&D, and to a lesser extent even if 3rd edition, so spells with saves usually were more reliable. But in 5E they've mostly erased that distinction; your chances of success are usually about the same regardless of the mechanic.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Having proficiency in a saving throw just means that you get to add your proficiency bonus (which increases with level) to saving throws of that type.