Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
2. In order to perform two weapon fighting BOTH weapons must be "Light" Shortswords and Scimitars will qualify. At level 4 you can take the "two weapon fighting" feat and this restriction is removed, letting you use any one-handed weapons.
Rapiers are Finesse weapons, but they are not "light"
3. There is more customization. At around level 3 each class can branch out into sublcasses that WILDLY change how they function, and there IS multiclassing, just not in the game yet
I like Power gaming just as much as the next guy, but don't pretend that 3.5 was that great...
It was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nightmare, disguised as "Choices" when in the end everyone was going for the same Combos and Advanced classes, with the ones not powerfull/usefull enough been ignored by everyone.
I still remember the briefcase i had to slug around for a game *shudder* ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ was heavy has all heck...
Firstly, I'll say that yes, 5e Removed complex magical items, magical items as a whole are now more rare and harder to find.
But as far as characters are concerned... I'm not QUITE convinced that complexity is gone.
For example, using just the 3.5e PHB and comparing it to the 5e PHB, there wasn't a particular character design or concept that I couldn't replicate in 5e.
If you were looking at specific feats, I couldn't find any barring the "Combat Expertise" line that I couldn't sort of replicate, though there IS Battle Maneuvers as a feat you could take.
Each of the classes functioned more or less the same, but in 5e they have subclasses that do not require Multiclassing, like the fighter's Eldritch Knight vs FighterX/WizardX.
You can still multiclass in 5e, so what type of "Complexity" are you losing out. Lets see what we can come up with that 5e can do that comes close to what you're missing out on
It's super late for me, but for example try putting a character concept together you can play in 3.5e using the PHB (Because there's like 100s of sub books and homebrew classes for 3.5e and 5e doesn't have many of them as official classes yet) and lets see if I can re-create them using 5e material
I'd actually like to try to theory them up when I wake up
Thank god they didn't make lore simple..
I knew I did something like this earlier.
Prior to this, there was a thread about 5e Rogues, and I tried to demonstrate that you could make SEVERAL different rogues with just FIVE levels of pure class rogue. Here's that post.
How many different rogues can you make in 5e? Hmm.
Okay, lets first give ourselves some guidelines:
The question was how many level 5 rogues can you make, this means single class rogue only for 5 levels.
Lets use only the PHB for this, so we can try to put this toward the POSSIBILITY of what BG3 will allow.
Alright, here we go.
Strength Based Grappler (Any archetype) - Rogues get "Dash" As a bonus action. This allows Rogues who build strength to Grapple, and use Dash to drag an enemy FAR away. You also have advantage attacking grappled foes, meaning that dagger in your hand can STAB for sneak attacks even when nobody else is nearby. You literally drag someone into an alley and shank them. You also have the option of restraining them. At 5th level you get Uncanny Dodge, allowing you to impose disadvantage against your grappled target trying to fight back, making this a one sided fight.
Charisma Assassin Infiltrator (Assassin) - Using the Actor Feat and the disguise kit proficiency provided by the Assassin archetype you can walk up to anyone as a friend and stab them with a instant critical strike sneak attack (Poison damage is doubled on a crit by the way). You can act as the party's "face" in most other regards, just be certain that you can escape when needed.
Basic Assassin (Assassin) - Dexterity based, Alert feat, Shortbow from the shadows. Typical ranged assassin with poisoned weapons.
Basic Ranged Rogue (Any Archetype) - Shortbow + Sharpshooter to get LONG RANGE SNEAK ATTACKS that ignore cover. Able to take a -5 attack to get +10 damage.
Mid-range crossbow duelist (Any Archetype) - Crossbow expert allows you to dual wield hand crossbows and make offhand attacks with them, as well as fire them in Melee with no disadvantage. Great for midrange skirmishing
*EDIT* Dual wielding crossbows isn't quite allowed. But you can use a single crossbow to make multiple attacks and just SAY you're dual wielding for cool points.
Scout Sniper (Thief) - Climbing and jumping boosts allows you to reach high areas faster and easier. Expertise with stealth allows you to do it quietly, and the ability to use items as a bonus action can allow you to utilize a myriad of tools from the safety of your vantage points while giving covering fire with a shortbow or crossbow.
Mobile Skirmisher (Any Archetype) - Using the Mobile feat you do not provoke opportunity attacks in combat and your speed increases. With dash as a bonus action you can move CRAZY FAR, 80 feet per TURN make an attack, and run away without any opportunity attacks!!! You only need to dip in, make a sneak attack, and dip out.
Magic Initiate Rogue (Arcane Trickster) - using the magic initiate feat you can get another spell and another spell slot that adds to the Rogue's spell list. He can use his further spell slots to cast his Initiate spell along with his other spells, giving them alot more freedom and spell usage.
Beguiler (Arcane Trickster) - Focusing on confusion, blinding, sleeping, and spells that don't require saving throws or provide "save or suck" effects.
There you go. Theres are just SOME off the TOP of my head, with just 5 levels of PURE ROGUE using only PHB material...
If you seriously can't build any diversity, then you aren't thinking.
**On a side note, I tried to do this with 3.5e, and I couldn't get as many unique Rogues because of "Feat tax." In order to get any INTERESTING feats, I'd have to first get 2 feats. MOST Rogues must take "Weapon Finesse" to use Dexterity to attack with melee weapons at level 3 forcing them to only have 2 feats at level 1 and 5, or be a human to get an extra level 1 feat. Multiclassing wasn't allowed in this example so as to follow the same rules as above.**
Additionally, simply things like being able to buff your melee characters up, so they could face tougher foes, or finding that fun magic item that you cant wait to use. To simple things like just being able to cast Hold Person on more then one person. There is so much variety in pathfinder, that you will never find in 5e. Show me a 5e class that can unleash its touch attacks through its melee strikes, or a Witch that can Hex her enemies every round with all kinds of flavor. I have a Winter based Witch in PF that i used as an NPC in my Kingmaker game, and had her litter the floor with ice tomb Hexes pre-fight which lead to scattering the PC's and forcing them to think the battle through.
5e is all about LIMITING the players options by taking choice away from them. Sure part of that is the power fantasy... but isn't that part of the game? isn't the idea of being a Wizard and changing the laws of reality suppose to be a thing? 3.5 and PF Casters feel like real weavers of magic, while 5e casters feel more like conan the barbarian magic. Yes it exists but it's about as entertaining as watching snow melt.
DnD is and has always been about having fun, and enjoying the game... and for me 5e just feels like that teacher with a rod in her hands, smacking your hands everything you want to do something fun.
5e is the fun killer... It isn't a bad game, but it sucked all the enjoyment out of my favorite classes and while i LOVE what they did with barbarians, and bards over all it's always felt lackluster in every other department.
I say that as someone who has played DnD since early 2nd edition and still has a couple of my 2e books (saddly a few of them fell apart do to use and age) and yes i play 5e... i can play it i don't hate it. But if you asked me which edition i would like to be it's probably gonna be PF 1e just because there is so much i can do with it character wise, that i will NEVER be able to do in 5e, because the game will just smack my hands and tell me no.
Oh and then there is advantage... the scam to rule all scams. People are convinced it's improving there chances of success. Sure you get a second chance to roll the dice... but do you know what would be better? actually improving the chance to succeed. If i have advantage on a roll and i need a 17 to succeed. Chances are i will fail both of those rolls. Yes getting to roll twice is nice, but PF and 3.5 handled this so much better by actually IMPROVING your target number, and making that number easier to attain. It has its issues, and there are ways to bloat certain skills BUT i can't understand this obsession with advantage... i can't name the number of times in 5e that i've had advantage and continue to miss because my to hit is just to low to even try it to begin with. Meanwhile that same situation in pathfinder would never happen as my skill roll is high enough to reduce that target number below 10 in all likeliness.
I could go on but i've ranted long enough...
Please don't think i hate 5e i mean i play it every sunday with a friend when i'm not DMing, and i own both BG3 and Solasta and am excited for those games. but for me 5e is just a downgrade in all areas, and i get alot of people love 5e but for us older players it was simple a system wide nerf.
Edit: i know you can upcast hold person, but that consumes higher level spell slots in 3.5 and PF you can just use another 2nd level spell slot and grab a second player, probably a poor example.
Thing is i don't care about pnp but for PC games it's not great system loads of room to improve not so much to call it boring like i did but still, the simplicity hurts my eyes:)
I agree with loads of stuff in this post especially about the spell combos that are hardy there and the weapons ooo the weapons never did i have so much vanilla stuffed in me.
Multiclassing will save the system if it's in game from bordem but i was never a fan of multiclassing cos it makes zero sense from roleplay point.
1. I will concede to this. You are correct, The "Concentration" limitation would not allow 1 character to maintain 2 walls simultaneously. This was made so that a mage could not have an infinite set of constant effects going at once. Essentially this is 2 wall spells, one that suffocates and one that prevents you from moving through it. both of those are 4th level spells requiring 7 levels of wizard/sorc, I'll see if I can find something comparable. But those ARE from supplemental books. 5e does have the elemental princes supplement with new elemental spells, but it's a basic wall of death and wall of containment combo.
I do not own the Princes of the Apocalypse elemental setting though, but You can likely reproduce this effect with anything like Evard's black tentacles and a wall of... anything
2a. Buffing characters does exist. Increasing their base strength values with potions or giving them the bless spell. Granting them advantage in various ways. Enlarge/Reduce works giving someone reach, Extra damage, etc.
2b. Hold Person At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, you can target on additional humanoid for each slot level above 2nd. The humanoids must be within 30 feet of each other when you target them.
2c. You are referring to another class that is not available in the PHB of 3.5e. And seeing as how they are still releasing more classes, this will likely become a playstyle for either the sorc or the fighter at some point. The paladin can cast smites through their weapons, and they get elemental and other magical smite options. Wrathful, Thunderous, Banishing, Branding, Searing, Etc. I may have to check Xanthar's guide to see what the options are in that later..
3. The "Obsession" with advantage is that I am sure you've played D&D at high level and you KNOW the minutia people went through to determine their attack bonus. It got a little ridiculous at times.
When you were stacking Bull's strength, Ram's Might, Size modifiers, Flanking bonuses, Multiple different base attack bonuses at different parts in the chain, this could take ALOT OF TIME to handle a single attack against an enemy who is also Blurry or displaced, under the effects of defensive spells, maybe Incorporeal, maybe using Defensive fighting.
This speeds things up by:
1. Bounding accuracy. Attack and defense will NEVER Be massively distant. You won't HAVE To roll a 17 just to hit. The game doesn't give you AC 22 monsters at low level when you don't have the Proficiency bonus to back that up. Or if it does, there's other ways to harm them.
2. Rolling twice and taking the higher/lower is much easier on both the player and the DM to get things going, rather than wondering which part of the attack chain am I in?
And this also speeds up "Contests". We both know that 3.5e was NOT well known for anything that wasn't an attack. Grappling was a 5 step process, so was Disarming and tripping. Now it's just... a contest. Who rolled higher, Done. It's not a limitation of choice, it just makes that choice easier to resolve.
I would like to END this particular post by saying it's stupid late, and I need sleep. I'll check back on this later
Or feats that are so mandatory that not taking them basically makes you useless.
both 3 and 5 have plenty of problems. 3 had too much, 5 may have too little. I feel like I can't make a cleric into a near-fighter or half-thief anymore: gone are the +stat buff spells (level 2), gone is the assured heavy armor (you can get it, but its not default cleric now), and dex has become required instead of nice. Gone is detect traps and domain spell to open locks. The no stat rolling / 8 min 15 max ability scores feels terrible, where is my 3 int half orc warrior with 20 str at level 1? Everyone feels like a hobbit now -- average, and not really cut out for adventuring. Fighter seems gutted, it does not appear to fight any better than a mage and here again the game rewards dex over str.
What happened, man? What did 3.5 do? What scars did it leave on you?
3.5 lets you totally ruin a character. There is META, where you feel compelled to pick specific things to be the best, which is very limiting. There is powerful without META, where you role play some, play a less used class or a different choice in feats, weapons, etc. But past that you can pick things that simply are not useful at all, and end up unable to do anything and have to start over. Like a novice may try to build a monk/mage thinking it will be a decent AC melee if needed complement to the fireworks, but you end up being terrible. Or they may try the neverwinter pale master, thinking it will make you a strong necro mage and discovering that it really won't. There are so many failed combinations in neverwinter specifically that its amazing anyone who was not a D&D expert could beat it at all on normal (core rules) setting let alone the harder modes.
I can see how a casual player, after trying 5 or so totally failed builds, would be better of in 5e rules. Its just annoying for people who understood 3.5 to have all their choices removed. 5e isnt bad, but nerfs are always frustrating. If 1.0 had been 5e, it would be fine, but taking 3.5 and throwing out 1/3 of it or more ... is a lot of watering down.
It was inevitable. With GG gone, the vision is gone, and moving forward is not going to please everyone.
Having looked at the spell list in 5e, it really isn't all that supported. I'm sure you are aware that Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade are a thing, so we can partially do this as any arcane caster or character that takes Magic Initiate. (Its really good on Arcane Tricksters and Melee Artificers, however, outside the scope of this discussion)
I had found 3 Touch spells that could possibly be used this way: Shocking Grasp, Inflict Wounds and Contagion. The rest were either buff spells and thus needed Concentration (Vampiric Touch, Flame Blade) or things you summon. (Spiritual Weapon, Bigby's Hand)
I love Magus, I really do. It was the class of choice for taking on Pathfinder: Kingmaker and it was fun. The closest we get to it in current 5e is through Bladesinger and even then, those wizards are still going to be at range due to both the spell list and the nature of 5e. If they do go into Melee, they'll just be using GFB/BB and disengaging before their Bladesong ends.