Why are all the NPC's unlikeable jerks?

[Brother Dakka]

Am I the only one that pines for characters like aerie, minsc, yoshimo, imoen? They all had likeable characteristics from the beginning. It feels like everyone either starts off as a ♥♥♥♥, evil, aloof. Mabye they can drastically change thru good storytelling but I just dont...LIKE any of these npcs. This may be the first baldurs gate i say F it and just make an all custom party right away and miss all the good side stories.

[Dorok]

You have no stat or pool to prove anything, and me too. Alistair is only from DAO as a companion at least, as a NPC in other games, woo really? I forgot him totally as NPC. Morrigan was back in DAI alas with a writing quite screw up, they even failed the nostalgia triggers.

Alistair with a male character for MC is a constant whiner quite exhausting, he is a lot worse on this and more lost than Imoen BG1. For me, the writer pushed it a lot too far. At the reverse, with a female character, the relationship are rather different and Alistair is at the reverse special and well written.

I don't remind the old Wynne was so popular, but I enjoyed her too, that said my age was making her more satisfying, chain companions more or less teens is tiresome where it's again and again.

To come back to the point, it is missing more friendly companions, I would agree with that, but nope I don't want some Alistair or Leliana.

[Retr0_Static]

I mean, I'd rather have companions with their own personality other than the companions in BG1 that just seem to live for the protagonist. I remember especially disliking Imoen just from how much she seemed to want to please the protagonist and that her own goals felt very limited. This might have changed in the sequel though I haven't touched that one yet.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by Brian Sirith:

Edit: And just to clarify: I don’t mind brats. It’s part of my roleplay kicking them out or -as in Shadowheart’s case- killing them. Makes a good story.

You roleplay killing women who don't conform?

[Brian Sirith]

Originally posted by dulany67:

Originally posted by Brian Sirith:

Edit: And just to clarify: I don’t mind brats. It’s part of my roleplay kicking them out or -as in Shadowheart’s case- killing them. Makes a good story.

You roleplay killing women who don't conform?

Edit: Yes, I do! :D

[kashkadavr]

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[Sogreth]

Originally posted by Dorok:

You have no stat or pool to prove anything, and me too.

Exactly. But the fact that the devs felt the need to have Alistair for an additional 3 games (even if an NPC), means something. Look at some of the other characters, Oghren for example. Why was he only present in DAO/DAO:A. Why not bring him back as an NPC in the other games just for fun? Or Wynne too, who also only appeared in DAO/DAO:A (although, there is a good chance she has passed by the time DA2 came along).

Alistair follows the same path as Morrigan when it comes to this. She was a very popular character. That's why she kept popping up in sequels, expansions, etc.

Originally posted by Retr0_Static:

I mean, I'd rather have companions with their own personality other than the companions in BG1 that just seem to live for the protagonist. I remember especially disliking Imoen just from how much she seemed to want to please the protagonist and that her own goals felt very limited. This might have changed in the sequel though I haven't touched that one yet.

Imoen became a much larger part of the game in BG2, and they completely reworked her personality.

Granted, she was the second best Mage in BG1 though.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Retr0_Static:

I mean, I'd rather have companions with their own personality other than the companions in BG1 that just seem to live for the protagonist. I remember especially disliking Imoen just from how much she seemed to want to please the protagonist and that her own goals felt very limited. This might have changed in the sequel though I haven't touched that one yet.

BG2 is a totally different Imoen, I can't bear Imoen BG2. I'm old and could have memory problems, but if Imoen for sure have fewer text than many more developed BG1 companions, some points:
- Do evil stuff and you'll see Imoen complain, not harassing player character with lecturing, but clear complain.
- Imoen is an old friend of main character, and no matter how, she will never leave, but she is a very old friend, a friendship from childhood.

It's fun you remind only Imoen because plenty companions will outright left your party because of your actions too good or too evil, or because of some other companions in the party, but also there's many companions interactions that can lead to struggles between companions from talk struggles to even combats between them, and there's also some cases of romances between companions, and some cases of companions relations that can be influenced by the party leader, the character put first in party order. Like have special case with Jaheira put in first, or have special case from having a strong MC put first, or at reverse a weak MC put first. Sometime be strict and authoritative with some companions can soften the party troubles, and more.

If there's a game where companions have a life out of relationship with main character it's BG1. BG2 already started a new way with mostly everything through talks with main characters, but also cases where such talk involve multiple companions.

[UnholyDentist]

They are unlikable jerks because people are that way irl too.

[obstinategenesis]

Originally posted by Dellecross:

Almost never I see the NPC (companions), which:

.. Also care about PC back - if you can ask them about their problems, why it never happens back?
.. Also help PC with their personal / background quests (which have to be there in the first place for this to work)
.. May change their world view depending on PC's action. For instance, even a very evil companion may get her/his soul touched and open their heart becoming more neutral or even good-aligned given enough time and consistent PC behavior
.. Change their judgement depending on their affinity with the PC. Surely if one is in love with PC, they will tend to be much more favorable and may even approve some of PC's actions whereas if they are neutral or hate PC, then the disposition would be completely different

Well said! I wish these were implemented more often. I wish I could pick one I want the most but they would all make such a big difference. RPGs could learn from some indie visual novels about how to write a convo where an NPC comforts a custom PC.

Sometimes I see games try to bring in quests where the NPCs help the PC, but it can be really challenging to come up with a quest many players will actually relate to. (Like, I'm sorry, my family in DA2 was crap, I did not feel sad about our missing estate or dead siblings or zombie mom.)

[Tobias Solem]

Imoen, Minsc, Yaheira, et al are pretty flat characters by comparison. Everyone's a hero, everyone has essentially zero character development. It's just "goody goody two-shoes" all around, and the biggest character flaws they have barely affect the plot at all.

The characters in BG3 have much more depth do them. There are many more layers to their personalities, and they change (or open up) the more you get to know them, and move forward in the story. Personally the characters in BG1 and 2 had pretty thin stories and arcs.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by Sew:

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

They are unlikable jerks because people are that way irl too.

Or because the writers accidently didn't make them as likable as they planned? Everything is speculation at this point, because you can use your argument for pretty much all likeable jerks too, but if writers wrote them poorly they can again use the excuse.

Because both likable & unlikable exist IRL wouldn't you agree? So it feels like Larian has a way out of creating all sorts of unlikables & we're just suppose to take it & not complain.

It feels like this opens the door to all sorts of issues for fantasy story-telling, but then again I don't know anymore? I think I just prefer a certain type of jerk, while others like these kind better I guess?

Everyone has their favorites, while mine are the "Johnny" & "Sonya's" of the world. 🌎 🤗 (I'll keep mentioning them in hopes Larian is watching & maybe might make one as a camp follower at least lol.)

I just don't think they are supposed to be likeable, they should resemble human behaviour, like your colleagues at work, not necessarily likeable but human. What's important is that they should come with good and bad traits, a unique and interesting personality and some development over the story. I don't believe player fanservice should come prior to all that, to make them likeable. as in attractive (sexual and aesthetics) and a friendly, supportive, easygoing personality. That just defines another boring and generic sexualised companion, which are already abundant in many rpgs.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Tobias Solem:

Imoen, Minsc, Yaheira, et al are pretty flat characters by comparison. Everyone's a hero, everyone has essentially zero character development. It's just "goody goody two-shoes" all around, and the biggest character flaws they have barely affect the plot at all.

Looks like, for example, you didn't even quote the jaheira rudeness including with Khalid but also very authoritative with mostly everybody. For Minsc, he can lost his temper rather fast, without mention when he goes berzerk, he is clearly a bit simple minded, it's taken with humor with Boo but he is still brain damaged. For Imoen, she is naive it would changes from the hyper critical and sarcastic BG3 companions.

That said, if I would agree there's something wrong in BG3 companion in Act I, but I can't pinpoint clearly why, they are just not attaching and if Shadowheart is an exception, it's a questionable case because she has an unclear personality.

[Bloodonmoon]

Eh, why is no one underlining the fact that THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DISLIKED. Larian gave us the worst companions for EA ON PURPOSE. Because no one choses them when they are mixed up with more likable companions. That's WHY they are jerks. The other companions that Larian kept from us won't be like them.... No one read the notes or what ?

[Brian Sirith]

Originally posted by Bloodonmoon:

Eh, why is no one underlining the fact that THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DISLIKED. Larian gave us the worst companions for EA ON PURPOSE.

Are they? I understood we were getting evil companions not unlikeable companions. Evil can be very charming or so I hear from the bible.

Larian -I understood- didn't give us the worst companions, they gave us the evil ones so we tried out the evil playthrough. And apart from a certain cleric I found them very likeable.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Bloodonmoon:

Eh, why is no one underlining the fact that THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DISLIKED. Larian gave us the worst companions for EA ON PURPOSE. Because no one choses them when they are mixed up with more likable companions. That's WHY they are jerks. The other companions that Larian kept from us won't be like them.... No one read the notes or what ?

Quote?

If all are evil, then Gale deserves an Oscar. For Wyll it's more ambigous, let say he is focused on making the good for the bad reasons, eventually it's evil lol.