D&D 5e Magic Items and Risk vs Reward

[Streeja]

With BG3 being within the level 4 cap, I am satisfied somewhat with magic items in the game. But from what I can see in 5e, the magic items are very weak compared to the old AD&D items I was used to seeing.

So, I pose 2 questions to the community as part of how 5e translates to a Risk vs Reward expectation of loot in video games.

1. Why do we have magic items that do not have a +1 stat ability. Blooded Greataxe, and Robe of Summer for examples. They are clearly magical. Why can't they be +1 as well . Some like the Sword of Justice is +1 and offers a magic ability (Tyr's Protection). It makes you want to equipment a simple Greataxe +1 over the Blooded Greataxe that has a cool special ability. Just seem too limiting, Am I alone in this perspective?

2. I would dare say that most gamers these days are loot happy judging by the way so many other games drop loot. it is somewhat of an expectation that if you kill a tough creature, boss, etc. you get good loot as a reward for your success and efforts (in additional to the XP). Does 5e have the right loot system to satisfy these players? In other words should Larian beef up loot to appease the video game crowd?

[Elminster]

5e ha limited a lot the scaling in hitting probability so that even a lvl 20 has a chance to be hit by a lvl 1, and therefore you dont have situations where a single lvl 20 warrior can wipe an entire army.

This has squished also magic items whihc now cap at +3 instead that +5. And a +3 weapon is a legendary item.

Also Larian thinks that warriors do not have enough buttons to push so they started putting abilities on every object to make the game more interesting. I am not convinced

[Elminster]

A general design explanation can be found here https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_Bounded_Accuracy_(5e_Guideline)

[Indure]

I really don't think the magic items are that weak in D&D 5e, nor does the current trend of magic items in BG3 seem to be underpowered.

I think people see a +1 and think it is awful, but if this was another game and they saw a greatsword with a +5% to hit and a 15% damage increase they would be loosing their mind.

[guard65]

same here, I consider the old +5 holy avenger to be +2 under 5e rules, imao.

I usually add my own magic items to the game but they never have more than +1. They do have functions however.

Like boots of springing and striding, or a robe that when you are hit creates on mirror image (only 1) for a short time. I have a dagger that on success hit casts heroism on me if I fail my constitution save. Basically useless to a high constitution player with const proficiency.

Most of the stuff I make is utility magic items not hammers of the gods.

[Mosey]

1) This is probably not the final loot for the game, but rather test items to determine what people use and what people don't. Some will probably carry over, some probably will not.

Also, there are items that give you stat bonuses already. There's a head item that gives automatic 18 INT, for example, which is often a lot more than a +1.

As for the 'cool' special ability, some people will value that more than just another +1 to hit and damage. E.G. the handaxe that doesn't have a +1 to hit, but gets a +1D4 to burn damage over time if you hit (could be a 1D6, don't exactly recall). It's more damage than just a +1 in most cases, and some people do dual-wield you know. And if you already get a +3 or +4 to hit and damage from your stats, the extra +1 diminishes in value somewhat.

2) If you're looking for Diablo style games where loot literally explodes out of bosses in a shower of gear, I'd suggest one purchased the wrong game. Even then, I'd suggest this game has a ton of loot if you know where to actually look for it. Some of it is actually quite powerful as well.

Gloves that add bladeward to anyone you heal, as well as a ring that add's bless to anyone you heal, just as an example. Or a hammer that heals for every target you hit. That's just the tip of the loot iceberg.

[NixAhmose]

Originally posted by Streeja:

1. Why do we have magic items that do not have a +1 stat ability. Blooded Greataxe, and Robe of Summer for examples. They are clearly magical. Why can't they be +1 as well . Some like the Sword of Justice is +1 and offers a magic ability (Tyr's Protection). It makes you want to equipment a simple Greataxe +1 over the Blooded Greataxe that has a cool special ability. Just seem too limiting, Am I alone in this perspective?

Because Act 1 is designed for levels 1 - 4(arguably 5 in some areas), the game doesn't want to give you that many magic items that would be considered stronger than uncommon. Going off of 5e item scaling, having +1 or a minor special ability is enough to make a weapon a uncommon tier item, having both would make it rare tier. There will definitely be more powerful items in the future, but in order to make items feel meaningfully powerful in the late the game has to have restraint with item distribution in the early game.

Also, personally speaking, I don't value stat boosts as being objectively better than any item with a cool ability. Generally speaking, I value a item with a utility ability over an item than a plus one as it gives me more options both in and out of combat.

Originally posted by Streeja:

2. I would dare say that most gamers these days are loot happy judging by the way so many other games drop loot. it is somewhat of an expectation that if you kill a tough creature, boss, etc. you get good loot as a reward for your success and efforts (in additional to the XP). Does 5e have the right loot system to satisfy these players? In other words should Larian beef up loot to appease the video game crowd?

For me, this is a strong NO. While I do like to play looter-shooters every now and then, I think for heavy role-playing game more rare loot works much better. A large-loot distribution works best when combat and gameplay are supposed to come before story and immersion as constantly finding so many god-tier powerful weapons everywhere that you literally don't have enough storage space to hold them all just damages immersion into the story. Having magical items and weapons actually rare and hard to get helps with immersion as then they actually feel like unique powerful weapons. Plus when you aren't constantly showered by magic items you get to spend more time to get attached to individual early-to-mid game weapons as you'll be able use them for longer.

[RealDealBreaker]

Originally posted by Streeja:

With BG3 being within the level 4 cap, I am satisfied somewhat with magic items in the game. But from what I can see in 5e, the magic items are very weak compared to the old AD&D items I was used to seeing.

So, I pose 2 questions to the community as part of how 5e translates to a Risk vs Reward expectation of loot in video games.

1. Why do we have magic items that do not have a +1 stat ability. Blooded Greataxe, and Robe of Summer for examples. They are clearly magical. Why can't they be +1 as well . Some like the Sword of Justice is +1 and offers a magic ability (Tyr's Protection). It makes you want to equipment a simple Greataxe +1 over the Blooded Greataxe that has a cool special ability. Just seem too limiting, Am I alone in this perspective?

2. I would dare say that most gamers these days are loot happy judging by the way so many other games drop loot. it is somewhat of an expectation that if you kill a tough creature, boss, etc. you get good loot as a reward for your success and efforts (in additional to the XP). Does 5e have the right loot system to satisfy these players? In other words should Larian beef up loot to appease the video game crowd?

1) I play d&d with a group of friends and since the pandemic started I have been running a game for what where mostly strangers (friends of a a guy I only knew through having met a few times at conferences) and I almost only give out 'magic' items that have special properties but no +1 (or +2, etc.).
Why? First, 5th edition does not assume that magic items are going to be given out to players so any addition of magic items increases player character strength beyond the 'assumed math/balance' of encounters (which 90%+ of DMs learn to ignore pretty quickly anyway).
Second, a weapon does not need +1 to be considered magic for the purposes of overcoming resistance (which is the most important function of magic weapons in a mechanical sense).
Third, it is the special properties of an item that tell the story, not the +1. My players have always been far more excited and connected a lot more to a thing like a staff that extends to three times it's length and ladder like rungs appear along side it than they ever did about a +1 long sword.

2) the 'loot system' in 5e is not the same at all as the way loot is integrated into this game. Strictly speaking, if a DM sticks religiously to the rules in the books, pretty much every bit of loot is randomly rolled on a series of tables. But the vast majority of DMs do something else. In my experience, most DMs will put reasonable items in reasonable places (e.g., a bandit store room is probably full of rations, general trade goods, weapons, and possibly some more secure chests with the good stuff in it like gold and gems) and randomly roll for some of the details (e.g., how much gold, what particular level 1 wizard spell scroll, etc.).
More to your question though, does this (BG3's) loot system satisfy the loot goblin type players? Probably not. But I don't think that is the target audience. BG3 is a very different kind of game from a looter shooter or ARPG. So my opinion is hell no, Larian should not beef up the loot to appease the loot oriented crowd. Doing so would only further diverge the game from what 5e is like in person/at-the-table.

[Toadman]

The last I played D and D was 3e,,the best. All my items I distributed created as a DM were based on the magic item tables which allocated points to items to define their worth and xp. So you could keep the items in check with the level of the players somewhat.

Most simple powers would have a +1 stat much like a +1 weapon. SO an item with a simple ability and a +1 stat would really be a +2 weapon. I don't see much difference in this game. Most abilities are minor and can proc or be used once in a while. None are over powered. Just like a +1 , 5% buff is minor.

[Streeja]

So what I am hearing is that loot is 5e is fine and due to 5e mechanics a +3 sword is actually really good like the old +5 items in the old mechanics.

I am much more of a fan of the items that give special abilities that just high stat bonuses. But I would like to see special items with at least some benefit. One reply was that BG3 is only not seeing much of this due to the low levels. I hope this is the case.

I would still really like to have my old +3 Vorpal Sword. Lots of good old memories with that thing.

[Indure]

Originally posted by Streeja:

So what I am hearing is that loot is 5e is fine and due to 5e mechanics a +3 sword is actually really good like the old +5 items in the old mechanics.

I am much more of a fan of the items that give special abilities that just high stat bonuses. But I would like to see special items with at least some benefit. One reply was that BG3 is only not seeing much of this due to the low levels. I hope this is the case.

I would still really like to have my old +3 Vorpal Sword. Lots of good old memories with that thing.

What is better a +1 dagger or the "Heart Seeker": A rare dagger, perfectly honed for striking true (+5% accuracy) and rupturing an opponents organs (+50% more damage).

Spoiler ... they are the same item.

You are correct that 5e has weaker magic items, but the entire world and characters are also reduced, making the balance roughly the same.

[Holylin]

I have only experienced DnD through computer games and IMHO 5e feels horrible as a computer adaptation.
It might be easier for tabletop idk. because you have todo fewer math and have fewer things to keep track off, but it feels just meh having only one buff per companion (where concentration gets constantly broken anyways) and so few feats.
I mean do you really have to choose between a stat increase and some feat in 5e? That just feels meh ...
Also combat feels so slow currently, with to many enemy units clogging up the turns which take forever.
The resting system is unimmersive and it is better without any previous encounter knowledge to rest after each encounter without having any penalties from constantly resting.
Battles do not feel like DnD battles in other games but more like watching a monkey hord constantly crawl up and down the various hills and platform levels. Why do meele even have the ability to dish out attacks of opportunity when every enemy can just jump/disengage monkey away from you and then shoot you in the face in the same turn ...
Feels more like herding monkeys.
Idk. the battles just feel meh, I want to hit the enemy with swords and spells and not play Commandos and or set up stupid traps like barreling half of the map and explding everything ...
I mean if you are a rogue and want to play that way okay, but it should not be the only really feasable playstyle ...
Also make the map flatter and stop that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ monkey horde jumping up and down of platforms like they have jet packs ...

[sirfuzzzy]

5th edition simplified magic items. Some say they oversimplified. It was an easy way to add a little more balance to the game (I said, "a little more"... I'm not saying it's actually balanced) along with their proficiency system and near complete lack of a skill system. It's loot lite.

I would not expect to see things change too much in regards to the magic items here as they are in keeping with the system. One of my least favorite things about 5e TBH but it does serve to make the TTRPG more accessible to folks who don't want to read through every single line of text in the books.

In the TTRPG world you can find the old magic items hiding out in Pathfinder 1e and 2e.

In the video game world.. well.. there are thousands of loot pinatas out there.

[Ronin Gamer]

In a large well crafted RPG, in this case CRPG, I prefer harder to find, but either unique or powerful gear when you find it, over hordes of loot. Loot games work if that's what you are building from the start, but not in this kind of title, and you need to alter your brain's thinking process to understand that if you're a fan of both types of games.

[sirfuzzzy]

Originally posted by Holylin:

...it feels just meh having only one buff per companion (where concentration gets constantly broken anyways) and so few feats.
I mean do you really have to choose between a stat increase and some feat in 5e? That just feels meh ...

.... Why do meele even have the ability to dish out attacks of opportunity when every enemy can just jump/disengage monkey away from you and then shoot you in the face in the same turn ...

I agree. The concentration mechanic in 5e is terrible. It essentially ruined spells completely and took away all creativity from every spell casting class in the game. I am sad to see them trying to stick it for a video game adaptation.

Same with the feats. What 5e essentially did was completely get rid of feats altogether and then add in a half-assed optional rule for using feats in place of stat boosts that every GM automatically includes. So what we are left with is a barely thought out sub-par feat system.

I am more than a little frustrated with the disengage in this game so far. The distance that every creature can travel with a disengage is crazy. Every enemy I encounter leaps half way across the map and attacks my main character even after I engage them with other party members. Hopefully this one gets addressed in Early Access as it is not really in keeping with the TTRPG. Although combat in 5e is traditionally extremely static and kind of boring so they may be attempting to fix that here.

[Ronin Gamer]

Originally posted by sirfuzzzy:

Originally posted by Holylin:

...it feels just meh having only one buff per companion (where concentration gets constantly broken anyways) and so few feats.
I mean do you really have to choose between a stat increase and some feat in 5e? That just feels meh ...

.... Why do meele even have the ability to dish out attacks of opportunity when every enemy can just jump/disengage monkey away from you and then shoot you in the face in the same turn ...

I agree. The concentration mechanic in 5e is terrible. It essentially ruined spells completely and took away all creativity from every spell casting class in the game. I am sad to see them trying to stick it for a video game adaptation.

Same with the feats. What 5e essentially did was completely get rid of feats altogether and then add in a half-assed optional rule for using feats in place of stat boosts that every GM automatically includes. So what we are left with is a barely thought out sub-par feat system.

I am more than a little frustrated with the disengage in this game so far. The distance that every creature can travel with a disengage is crazy. Every enemy I encounter leaps half way across the map and attacks my main character even after I engage them with other party members. Hopefully this one gets addressed in Early Access as it is not really in keeping with the TTRPG. Although combat in 5e is traditionally extremely static and kind of boring so they may be attempting to fix that here.

Concentration spells do have a higher chance not to break if you have a higher Constitution stat bonus. If you're playing a character that you know is going to have a number of those options, maybe consider that?