Bear Form: What am I missing

[wirednight]

Okay so I chose originally to go Lunar Druid. Then I saw the bear form and I don't get it.

Base level 2 druid: 15 HP, AC 14, 1d8+3 damage with Shillelagh (assuming +3 to dex and wis), can cast spells which can raise AC

Bear at level 2: 30 HP, AC 12, damage of 2d4 damage, with the ability to get hit more.

Wolf at level 2: 18 HP, AC 14, damage 2d12, with the ability to set up a team mate to get a critical next attack.

So what's the big deal with a bear. Sure you have more HP, but you get hit more with the lower AC, and no way to raise it. You also do a lot less damage (1 to 8 vs 4-11).

The Wolf, which any Druid can grab, gives you less HP, but more AC and better damage, meaning you'll get hit less, and do more damage, and with the possibility of setting up your teammate for a critical, meaning even more overall dps.

So why chose Circle of Moon then?

[Soft Lockpick]

Nothing. The bear form is awful.

Dire Raven is solid for single opponent fights and mobility as I understand it. But you're better off with more spells.

[R3sistance]

The numbers shown for Bear Form's attack are wrong, that is what they show up as in game (2d4+0) but that attack commonly does 10~11 damage, so I am inclined to believe it's really 2d4+4, which would make more sense given bears have a +4 Strength.

However I am not arguing that the bear form matches where it should do for 5E, it's meant to be a power house early on and right now it's form is a bit meh. Bears should have multi-attack even from level 2.

[wirednight]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

The numbers shown for Bear Form's attack are wrong, that is what they show up as in game (2d4+0) but that attack commonly does 10~11 damage, so I am inclined to believe it's really 2d4+4, which would make more sense given bears have a +4 Strength.

However I am not arguing that the bear form matches where it should do for 5E, it's meant to be a power house early on and right now it's form is a bit meh. Bears should have multi-attack even from level 2.

Okay so even with the 2d4+4, that would mean it has better Hitpoints, but you get 10% more of the time in bear form, negating the extra hitpoints, while in human form you would have better AC with a +3 dex, the ability to wear magical armor, and the ability to cast mirror image and heal spells on you?

Hmmm.. okay so I see now why you're still saying its a bit meh.

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by wirednight:

Originally posted by R3sistance:

The numbers shown for Bear Form's attack are wrong, that is what they show up as in game (2d4+0) but that attack commonly does 10~11 damage, so I am inclined to believe it's really 2d4+4, which would make more sense given bears have a +4 Strength.

However I am not arguing that the bear form matches where it should do for 5E, it's meant to be a power house early on and right now it's form is a bit meh. Bears should have multi-attack even from level 2.

Okay so even with the 2d4+4, that would mean it has better Hitpoints, but you get 10% more of the time in bear form, negating the extra hitpoints, while in human form you would have better AC with a +3 dex, the ability to wear magical armor, and the ability to cast mirror image and heal spells on you?

Hmmm.. okay so I see now why you're still saying its a bit meh.

My best guess is that Larian saw people were using death tanking as a strategy because their AI is badly programmed. And instead of addressing the bad programming they misinterpreted it as a "playstyle people enjoy" and made it a class feature.

Basically if you played this game prior to Druid Gale was your "main tank" in a lot of runs. Because his bad AC made him the prime target. You'd just revive him every time he fell and take out the enemies with 2 other characters. They didn't realize their bad AI was forcing that behavior so they made an entire wildshape built around it. Low AC, highest HP, and death isn't true death.

Why they nerfed the form to the ground I don't know. But it's the only explanation I can think of. Since the form is useless without that interpretation.

[wirednight]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

Originally posted by wirednight:

Okay so even with the 2d4+4, that would mean it has better Hitpoints, but you get 10% more of the time in bear form, negating the extra hitpoints, while in human form you would have better AC with a +3 dex, the ability to wear magical armor, and the ability to cast mirror image and heal spells on you?

Hmmm.. okay so I see now why you're still saying its a bit meh.

My best guess is that Larian saw people were using death tanking as a strategy because their AI is badly programmed. And instead of addressing the bad programming they misinterpreted it as a "playstyle people enjoy" and made it a class feature.

Basically if you played this game prior to Druid Gale was your "main tank" in a lot of runs. Because his bad AC made him the prime target. You'd just revive him every time he fell and take out the enemies with 2 other characters. They didn't realize their bad AI was forcing that behavior so they made an entire wildshape built around it. Low AC, highest HP, and death isn't true death.

Why they nerfed the form to the ground I don't know. But it's the only explanation I can think of. Since the form is useless without that interpretation.

That's the only thing I can think of. Because as it stands right now, 30 HPs is nice, but not if I'm getting hit 10% more at base, doing the same damage as base, and as a tank pulling every mob to me, to beat on me even more.

I mean I could deal with less or equal damage, if it had a real tanks AC. Right now its a horrible tank that can't even do damage properly. I'm not sure what it's purpose is.

[Indure]

Something you missed that makes the bear even worse than the wolf, is the wolf gets pack tactics which means it has advantage when any ally is close by.

The spider is a flat out better tank then the bear as well.

[R3sistance]

Also the Ram (forget it's name) looks terrible, it knocks down or gores, most things that knock down an enemy get to gore on the same turn.

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by wirednight:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

My best guess is that Larian saw people were using death tanking as a strategy because their AI is badly programmed. And instead of addressing the bad programming they misinterpreted it as a "playstyle people enjoy" and made it a class feature.

Basically if you played this game prior to Druid Gale was your "main tank" in a lot of runs. Because his bad AC made him the prime target. You'd just revive him every time he fell and take out the enemies with 2 other characters. They didn't realize their bad AI was forcing that behavior so they made an entire wildshape built around it. Low AC, highest HP, and death isn't true death.

Why they nerfed the form to the ground I don't know. But it's the only explanation I can think of. Since the form is useless without that interpretation.

That's the only thing I can think of. Because as it stands right now, 30 HPs is nice, but not if I'm getting hit 10% more at base, doing the same damage as base, and as a tank pulling every mob to me, to beat on me even more.

I mean I could deal with less or equal damage, if it had a real tanks AC. Right now its a horrible tank that can't even do damage properly. I'm not sure what it's purpose is.

If BG3 has taught me nothing else it's that Larian doesn't understand D&D.

Honestly, they'd be best served by hiring some critics. They need a group in their camp telling them what they've misunderstood and where they are stepping on the toes of giants instead of standing on their shoulders.

[Dude]

zero hours played yet but I would think a bear would be a higher level ability with more damage and ability to break doors or something

[RealDealBreaker]

Originally posted by wirednight:

So why chose Circle of Moon then?

It basically comes down to the moon druid being able to wild shape as a bonus action. Land druid must us an action to change into a wolf which means they can only move to the enemy and change that turn where a moon druid could move, change, and attack.

[Draconiya]

Originally posted by wirednight:

Originally posted by R3sistance:

The numbers shown for Bear Form's attack are wrong, that is what they show up as in game (2d4+0) but that attack commonly does 10~11 damage, so I am inclined to believe it's really 2d4+4, which would make more sense given bears have a +4 Strength.

However I am not arguing that the bear form matches where it should do for 5E, it's meant to be a power house early on and right now it's form is a bit meh. Bears should have multi-attack even from level 2.

Okay so even with the 2d4+4, that would mean it has better Hitpoints, but you get 10% more of the time in bear form, negating the extra hitpoints, while in human form you would have better AC with a +3 dex, the ability to wear magical armor, and the ability to cast mirror image and heal spells on you?

Hmmm.. okay so I see now why you're still saying its a bit meh.

Most druids aren't going to have 16 dex. They also cannot cast Mirror Image, it's not a druid spell. And you can also be healed in Wild Shape.

Bear form is excellent when you have Barkskin active as well. That's more HP, long jumps, more damage than the UI generally shows, with 16 AC.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Originally posted by Draconiya:

Originally posted by wirednight:

Okay so even with the 2d4+4, that would mean it has better Hitpoints, but you get 10% more of the time in bear form, negating the extra hitpoints, while in human form you would have better AC with a +3 dex, the ability to wear magical armor, and the ability to cast mirror image and heal spells on you?

Hmmm.. okay so I see now why you're still saying its a bit meh.

Most druids aren't going to have 16 dex. They also cannot cast Mirror Image, it's not a druid spell. And you can also be healed in Wild Shape.

Bear form is excellent when you have Barkskin active as well. That's more HP, long jumps, more damage than the UI generally shows, with 16 AC.

really? with the current races atm most druids will either have 16 dex as either human or woodelf or dwarf with dex 14 so guessing more than 50 percent will have it and guessing those that dont go moon druid.

[OrcBro]

Yea, bear form disappointed a bit.. One good thing is you can taunt. But otherwise... Land druid gets additional cantrip (hello guidance :D) and spell restore like wizards + coast druid on lvl 3 gets misty step and mirror images.. amazing heal, support, control and decent damage from moon beam that you can re-position every turn. Shadowheart can suck it lmao

[dolby]

The whole point is the taunt, that is it... That is the only way you can tank.. the rest is just AI randomaly attacking you.

if you have high AC on a character it doesn't mean you gonna actully tank anything cos most of the time Ai will just ignore you and go for the lowest AC in range. So having low ac and temp highish Hp is good in this case if they resits taunt so you can do HP tanking.

But the game is so easy you don't have taunt cos Damage is always the best, optimal way to play this game. And on a side note we have all sorts of larian things like hide, highground... that you can use to avoid damage on to your squishy so it's pointless...

[Mosey]

The bear can throw a lot of things, including goblins, pretty well with a 19 STR.

Just saying.