Does proficiency.. even actually matter?

[MeinChurro]

This has been annoying my for quite awhile now. I have all this proficiency, frankly high stats for certain dialogue rolls, and you'd think it would make a difference, but regardless I fail these rolls, over, and over, and over...

I get what they were going for, for the dnd thing, but this is really getting on my nerves. If I am going to have to save scum to get preferred dialogue outcome, I might as well have ZERO proficiency! For that matter, I have tested dialogue rolls in things I have NEGATIVE proficiency, and I'd have to save scum just about as much as checks in things I HAVE proficiency in!

Yes, I know I could also use inspiration, but considering the rarity of these inspiration points, I would rather waste time rolling and reloading than not have those inspiration points later for dialogue with multiple hard(er) checks therein. Frankly, the whole current system sucks, and the animated dice is unnecessary - and I'd rather have it as an option. Again, I understand the DnD thing they were going for.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Does anything even matter in any game? You can save scum in pretty much all modern games. If you ruin your own experience with save scumming then that is your own fault. Also negative efficiency? Not for me, I can pretty much guarantee that most of the check are passed. Plus proficiency becomes stronger when you gain levels.

These garbage rolls are ruining my experience. This isn't a tabletop game, this is a video game. Certain compromises have to be made for a more enjoyable experience. If I have proficiency in skills - high proficiency - and still fail these checks CONSISTENTLY, there is NO PURPOSE in these skills. I am even playing an Asmodeus Tiefling warlock with friends, STILL failing these rolls. all the time, it is stupid, and it is annoying.

By negative, I meant I have -2 on strength, and - 1 on wisdom, for example.

[MeinChurro]

I will give an example:

Here's a test I did just now. I reloaded a save where I knew there was an indimidation check. Using 'Thaumaturgy' for advantage. First try FAILURE. These skills are worthless, if I am still failing - constantly. If I choose NOT to save scum, due to rng I would have to take what I am given... FAILURE It's not like this is rare.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060093883465/A853E8051DFD87A424CD0CEF17846B86B2C04689/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060093883599/37EFF33CDF266356BB1B30F12E79729FFA93431A/

My character build is fine, it's the rng that sucks; bad luck. The dice rolling animation is frankly unnecessary as well, or rather as someone else suggested - too many clicks. Again, I am not playing a Pen and paper game, I am playing a video game, certain liberties have to be taken for a better experience.

If I am choosing a dialogue option with a check, with advantage, with skills tailored for passing said check, one would think I have the intention of PASSING said check. Not failing it. If I wanted to fail these checks it would be much less tedious to simply not take or use ANY of these skills, or stats.

[R3sistance]

in D&D 5E your character gets more proficient as they level.

Levels - +Proficiency Bonus
1~4 - +2
5-8 - +3
9-12 - +4
13-16 - +5
17-20 - +6

So proficiency has a larger effect later on in the game, at this point in EA we are capped to level 4 and so proficiency only adds a +2, on a dice roll you have a 5% chance of hitting any specific number and so early on this only alters the chance of success by 10% but later on this becomes 30%.

So going from a 40% to a 50% chance of success is not as large as going from a 40% to a 70% chance.

Further more, Bards and Rogues get expertise which doubles the proficiency bonus to a skill. Currently not implemented but that'd make a 40% go to 60% at levels 1~4 and a 40% go to a 100% at levels 17~20.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

in D&D 5E your character gets more proficient as they level.

Levels - +Proficiency Bonus
1~4 - +2
5-8 - +3
9-12 - +4
13-16 - +5
17-20 - +6

So proficiency has a larger effect later on in the game, at this point in EA we are capped to level 4 and so proficiency only adds a +2, on a dice roll you have a 5% chance of hitting any specific number and so early on this only alters the chance of success by 10% but later on this becomes 30%.

So going from a 40% to a 50% chance of success is not as large as going from a 40% to a 70% chance.

Further more, Bards and Rogues get expertise which doubles the proficiency bonus to a skill. Currently not implemented but that'd make a 40% go to 60% at levels 1~4 and a 40% go to a 100% at levels 17~20.

So, it's simply that we are stuck at low levels and restricted during EA that it sucks? Good to know the exact details. I hope this is translated well on full release, because currently it leaves a lot to be desired. However, the early game checks will always suck, it seems. Unfortunate.

[NixAhmose]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

This has been annoying my for quite awhile now. I have all this proficiency, frankly high stats for certain dialogue rolls, and you'd think it would make a difference, but regardless I fail these rolls, over, and over, and over...

I get what they were going for, for the dnd thing, but this is really getting on my nerves. If I am going to have to save scum to get preferred dialogue outcome, I might as well have ZERO proficiency! For that matter, I have tested dialogue rolls in things I have NEGATIVE proficiency, and I'd have to save scum just about as much as checks in things I HAVE proficiency in!

Yes, I know I could also use inspiration, but considering the rarity of these inspiration points, I would rather waste time rolling and reloading than not have those inspiration points later for dialogue with multiple hard(er) checks therein. Frankly, the whole current system sucks, and the animated dice is unnecessary - and I'd rather have it as an option. Again, I understand the DnD thing they were going for.

Does it matter in the sense that it increases your chances of success? Yes.

Does it matter in the sense of guaranteeing the most optimal outcome to every scenario? No as there will always be a chance that you fail a skill check and have to improvise.

For me, I like rolling with the punches and trying to make the best out of a bad situation when something doesn't go to plan. That kind of unpredictable chaos is what helps keep the dialogue scenes tense as you can't simply min-max your way to automatic success.
Though if you don't like that kind of unpredictability and chaos, well then I guess your only hope will be wait until there's a story mode that removes the rng from the game.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

I will give an example:

Here's a test I did just now. I reloaded a save where I knew there was an indimidation check. Using 'Thaumaturgy' for advantage. First try FAILURE. These skills are worthless, if I am still failing - constantly. If I choose NOT to save scum, due to rng I would have to take what I am given... FAILURE It's not like this is rare.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060093883465/A853E8051DFD87A424CD0CEF17846B86B2C04689/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060093883599/37EFF33CDF266356BB1B30F12E79729FFA93431A/

My character build is fine, it's the rng that sucks; bad luck. The dice rolling animation is frankly unnecessary as well, or rather as someone else suggested - too many clicks. Again, I am not playing a Pen and paper game, I am playing a video game, certain liberties have to be taken for a better experience.

If I am choosing a dialogue option with a check, with advantage, with skills tailored for passing said check, one would think I have the intention of PASSING said check. Not failing it. If I wanted to fail these checks it would be much less tedious to simply not take or use ANY of these skills, or stats.

Charisma checks are really only relevant in social interaction so let's give some math to you.
Max charisma score would be 18 in early access. That means +4 to skill charisma skill checks. Profiency bonus would add +2. Guidance would add 1d4.
On total that adds 7-10 on each check. It's literally possible to autopass checks with luck from guidance.

Now the Real DC for the check you tried to do is 15. That is actually pretty difficult to defeat. Though with guidance buff there would've been chance to win with roll of 6.
Your character build isn't fine. Your charisma is not maxed out and you don't use guidance to buff the skill checks.

"Again, I am not playing a Pen and paper game, I am playing a video game,"
You're playing video game that seeks to imitate pen and paper experience.

Also from math stand point... You had basically 50% chance to succeed that skill check with your current bonuses. It's very possible that one can get same results twice in a row while throwing a coin.

I am at maximum charisma for my current level (3), as far as I am aware. Granted, I didn't have shadowheart cast guidance on me when I reloaded that save.

[R3sistance]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Originally posted by R3sistance:

in D&D 5E your character gets more proficient as they level.

Levels - +Proficiency Bonus
1~4 - +2
5-8 - +3
9-12 - +4
13-16 - +5
17-20 - +6

So proficiency has a larger effect later on in the game, at this point in EA we are capped to level 4 and so proficiency only adds a +2, on a dice roll you have a 5% chance of hitting any specific number and so early on this only alters the chance of success by 10% but later on this becomes 30%.

So going from a 40% to a 50% chance of success is not as large as going from a 40% to a 70% chance.

Further more, Bards and Rogues get expertise which doubles the proficiency bonus to a skill. Currently not implemented but that'd make a 40% go to 60% at levels 1~4 and a 40% go to a 100% at levels 17~20.

So, it's simply that we are stuck at low levels and restricted during EA that it sucks? Good to know the exact details. I hope this is translated well on full release, because currently it leaves a lot to be desired. However, the early game checks will always suck, it seems. Unfortunate.

The fact you only see your chance to succeed go up by 10% is because of the lower levels, yes. Proficiency also affects weapons, you may notice there are proficient and non-proficient weapons based on race and class choices (more so class). It's basically to show your character becomes better at what they do as they level, more so the things they are proficient with.

Spell casting is also affected by proficiency, for example the save DC on a spell is usually: 8+spell casting ability modifier (Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency

Meanwhile spell casting attack rolls and proficient weapon rolls are generally
Ability Modifier (Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency + 1D20

This all ties together into a concept called Bounded Accuracy: https://olddungeonmaster.com/2014/08/30/bounded-accuracy/

This all said, I wouldn't underestimate an increase change of 10%. The difference between 40% chance to hit and 50% chance to hit, is very significant.

[MeinChurro]

Well, I reloaded that save again with guidance. So this is simply a hilarious screenshot. This is what I mean. I can't catch any breaks! At this point, the game just has it out for me!

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060094006684/3D63F8A3D613BF2F0F3E7F707D01A6C13695AE0A/

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

So, it's simply that we are stuck at low levels and restricted during EA that it sucks? Good to know the exact details. I hope this is translated well on full release, because currently it leaves a lot to be desired. However, the early game checks will always suck, it seems. Unfortunate.

The fact you only see your chance to succeed go up by 10% is because of the lower levels, yes. Proficiency also affects weapons, you may notice there are proficient and non-proficient weapons based on race and class choices (more so class). It's basically to show your character becomes better at what they do as they level, more so the things they are proficient with.

Spell casting is also affected by proficiency, for example the save DC on a spell is usually: 8+spell casting ability modifier (Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency

Meanwhile spell casting attack rolls and proficient weapon rolls are generally
Ability Modifier (Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency + 1D20

This all ties together into a concept called Bounded Accuracy: https://olddungeonmaster.com/2014/08/30/bounded-accuracy/

This all said, I wouldn't underestimate an increase change of 10%. The difference between 40% chance to hit and 50% chance to hit, is very significant.

I guess I didn't fully understand the exact numbers, or the bigger picture, and it seems I am simply plagued with bad luck! Again, I hope on launch this will be alleviated, with things like bard being added, etc. Don't get me wrong this isn't enough to break the game for me, I just had to vent some frustrations. I will also have to make sure I keep guidance on for conversations.

Originally posted by Pumis:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Well, I reloaded that save again with guidance. So this is simply a hilarious screenshot. This is what I mean. I can't catch any breaks! At this point, the game just has it out for me!

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1736674060094006684/3D63F8A3D613BF2F0F3E7F707D01A6C13695AE0A/

Bad luck is also a thing. You can't autopass DC 15 that is considered as difficult DC in PnP. But if you keep rolling and keep records of the results you got, you will see that luck is actually on your favor with guidance buff.
Oh btw... Take the loaded dice feature off, it might be buggy.

I just had to vent, after having SO MUCH bad luck! As I said, I will make more of an effort to keep guidance on for dialogue. and pray for good rng, I did gain something from this topic (Aside from further context). I just didn't think my build was the cause of these issues, it is pretty specific with even an asmoedus tiefling advantage, though I have heard half elf is better for warlock.

[R3sistance]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Originally posted by R3sistance:

The fact you only see your chance to succeed go up by 10% is because of the lower levels, yes. Proficiency also affects weapons, you may notice there are proficient and non-proficient weapons based on race and class choices (more so class). It's basically to show your character becomes better at what they do as they level, more so the things they are proficient with.

Spell casting is also affected by proficiency, for example the save DC on a spell is usually: 8+spell casting ability modifier (Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency

Meanwhile spell casting attack rolls and proficient weapon rolls are generally
Ability Modifier (Strength/Dexterity/Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma) + Proficiency + 1D20

This all ties together into a concept called Bounded Accuracy: https://olddungeonmaster.com/2014/08/30/bounded-accuracy/

This all said, I wouldn't underestimate an increase change of 10%. The difference between 40% chance to hit and 50% chance to hit, is very significant.

I guess I didn't fully understand the exact numbers, or the bigger picture, and it seems I am simply plagued with bad luck! Again, I hope on launch this will be alleviated, with things like bard being added, etc. Don't get me wrong this isn't enough to break the game for me, I just had to vent some frustrations. I will also have to make sure I keep guidance on for conversations.

Originally posted by Pumis:

Bad luck is also a thing. You can't autopass DC 15 that is considered as difficult DC in PnP. But if you keep rolling and keep records of the results you got, you will see that luck is actually on your favor with guidance buff.
Oh btw... Take the loaded dice feature off, it might be buggy.

I just had to vent, after having SO MUCH bad luck! As I said, I will make more of an effort to keep guidance on for dialogue. and pray for good rng, I did gain something from this topic (Aside from further context). I just didn't think my build was the cause of these issues, it is pretty specific with even an asmoedus tiefling advantage, though I have heard half elf is better for warlock.

Half-Elf gets the best stats for any Charisma based class but it's still a +2 Charisma vs. a +2 Charisma, Tieflings are also good for any Charisma based class, it is just they have a junk stat as no class benefits from both Charisma (+2) and Intelligence (+1) which is the stats 2 of the available 3 sub races offer. Charisma +2 & Strength +1 is really good for Paladin for Zariel Tieflings.

As a Half-Elf you can do +2 Charisma, +1 Constitution and +1 Dexterity which can improve concentration saving throws, AC and dexterity saving throws but it gives no benefits over tiefling to Charisma. Tieflings get a few innate charisma spells from their racial heritage, which is also a slight consideration (but I wish they scaled with level a bit better).

Loaded Die is something to turn off if save scumming since it will give you a semi-consistent result every time meaning if you roll 5 and re-load, the repeat of the roll will be in the same area (i.e. a 4-6).

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by Pumis:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

I guess I didn't fully understand the exact numbers, or the bigger picture, and it seems I am simply plagued with bad luck! Again, I hope on launch this will be alleviated, with things like bard being added, etc. Don't get me wrong this isn't enough to break the game for me, I just had to vent some frustrations. I will also have to make sure I keep guidance on for conversations.

I just had to vent, after having SO MUCH bad luck! As I said, I will make more of an effort to keep guidance on for dialogue. and pray for good rng, I did gain something from this topic (Aside from further context). I just didn't think my build was the cause of these issues, it is pretty specific with even an asmoedus tiefling advantage, though I have heard half elf is better for warlock.

No worries, it happens. Though I'm not 100% of this, but I think that your race might actually matter as well. Goblins tend to grow before drows. So if have disguiseself scroll or spell, I recommend trying the results again. Seriously though, guidance buff is a game changer.

The first character I played for a little while, was actually a Drow. They had a surprisingly large amount of unique interactions in comparison to my current tiefling. I stopped playing Drow however, I wanted to save it for launch. My tiefling (so far) has a surprising lack of interactions, and the racial dialogue options aren't that great, at least for my headcanon tiefling's personality. Yes, I needed to use guidance for more of a chance.

Additionally, don't get me wrong, I appreciate that their are different outcomes, and I will probably do a playthrough after launch rolling with the punches, for a less linear playthrough, but sometimes I want specific outcomes for a character - that's when I choose things like Asmodeus Tiefling with advantage, etc.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

I guess I didn't fully understand the exact numbers, or the bigger picture, and it seems I am simply plagued with bad luck! Again, I hope on launch this will be alleviated, with things like bard being added, etc. Don't get me wrong this isn't enough to break the game for me, I just had to vent some frustrations. I will also have to make sure I keep guidance on for conversations.

I just had to vent, after having SO MUCH bad luck! As I said, I will make more of an effort to keep guidance on for dialogue. and pray for good rng, I did gain something from this topic (Aside from further context). I just didn't think my build was the cause of these issues, it is pretty specific with even an asmoedus tiefling advantage, though I have heard half elf is better for warlock.

Half-Elf gets the best stats for any Charisma based class but it's still a +2 Charisma vs. a +2 Charisma, Tieflings are also good for any Charisma based class, it is just they have a junk stat as no class benefits from both Charisma (+2) and Intelligence (+1) which is the stats 2 of the available 3 sub races offer. Charisma +2 & Strength +1 is really good for Paladin for Zariel Tieflings.

As a Half-Elf you can do +2 Charisma, +1 Constitution and +1 Dexterity which can improve concentration saving throws, AC and dexterity saving throws but it gives no benefits over tiefling to Charisma. Tieflings get a few innate charisma spells from their racial heritage, which is also a slight consideration (but I wish they scaled with level a bit better).

Loaded Die is something to turn off if save scumming since it will give you a semi-consistent result every time meaning if you roll 5 and re-load, the repeat of the roll will be in the same area (i.e. a 4-6).

I would be lying by saying I hadn't considered restarting my warlock as a half-elf. It would simply be a stronger character at level 4, even with the same build, and the interactions that tiefling has currently, are disappointing. I just didn't want to burn myself out of act 1 too much, for launch.

[R3sistance]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Originally posted by R3sistance:

Half-Elf gets the best stats for any Charisma based class but it's still a +2 Charisma vs. a +2 Charisma, Tieflings are also good for any Charisma based class, it is just they have a junk stat as no class benefits from both Charisma (+2) and Intelligence (+1) which is the stats 2 of the available 3 sub races offer. Charisma +2 & Strength +1 is really good for Paladin for Zariel Tieflings.

As a Half-Elf you can do +2 Charisma, +1 Constitution and +1 Dexterity which can improve concentration saving throws, AC and dexterity saving throws but it gives no benefits over tiefling to Charisma. Tieflings get a few innate charisma spells from their racial heritage, which is also a slight consideration (but I wish they scaled with level a bit better).

Loaded Die is something to turn off if save scumming since it will give you a semi-consistent result every time meaning if you roll 5 and re-load, the repeat of the roll will be in the same area (i.e. a 4-6).

I would be lying if I hadn't considered restarting my warlock as a half-elf. It would simply be a stronger character at level 4, even with the same build, and the interactions that tiefling has currently, are disappointing. I just didn't want to burn myself out of act 1 too much, for launch.

Unfortunately it is well known in the D&D community that Half-elf is one of the most OPed choices, the 2nd most OPed in PHB after Variant Human, but BG3 doesn't have Variant Human anyways.

[MeinChurro]

Originally posted by R3sistance:

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

I would be lying if I hadn't considered restarting my warlock as a half-elf. It would simply be a stronger character at level 4, even with the same build, and the interactions that tiefling has currently, are disappointing. I just didn't want to burn myself out of act 1 too much, for launch.

Unfortunately it is well known in the D&D community that Half-elf is one of the most OPed choices, the 2nd most OPed in PHB after Variant Human, but BG3 doesn't have Variant Human anyways.

I think I might actually switch, I'm only level 3 and despite my hours I am not that far. I have so many hours in comparison to my location in the story, because I take RPGs slow and methodically. My "endgame" (Act 1) experience might be better, since they would be on par with my tiefling dialogue check wise, but also a stronger warlock.

Generally, I don't like playing things like human or half elf, always thought they were fairly generic, but it's how it is I guess. Yes, I have read that human in this game currently is pretty... bad..

[R3sistance]

Originally posted by MeinChurro:

Yes, I have read that human in this game currently is pretty... bad..

Default Human is the most under powered race in PHB while Variant Human is the most overpowered race in PHB.

Default Human +1 to every attribute, and that is it.

Variant Human +1 to two attributes, +1 skill proficiency and +1 feat

The fact Variant Human gets +1 feat is massively overpowered, no other race gets this and it grants Variant Human access to vastly more builds than any other race, making it not just the most overpowered race but gives it the most customisation of any race period.

Default Human meanwhile... +1 to all attributes, this is pretty lackluster. It means it can do any class better than average but excels at nothing, Almost all other races excel at certain classes. Almost all other races excel at certain classes. Default Human should have at least had +2 skill proficiency, it fits with the whole Humans can learn/do anything but they lack even this.