Wizard Nerfed Into Oblivion.

[PepsiSucks]

While I get making Long rests more sparse is *kinda* better. It totally destroys the wizard class.

At LEAST give the wizard their Arcane Recovery on short rest if we keep this Food system PLEASE!

I mean Fighters get their action surge on short rest, and Wizards aren't even really good until mid-late game anyway when they've had time and resources to learn a bunch of spells.

I dunno. Just kinda seems like BS to me how much better fighters are than every other class. :/

[TheBlueFox]

***********
There is a timer for completing this game, centered around the amount of food available within game.

You can get enough food to rest TWICE before every encounter.

As it stands, the timer is meaningless. *Currently*
***********

Saying that, in the future, there will possibly be less food available in game.

At the same time, there SHOULD be difficulty options.

If you are still unable to play this game at your own pace after this, then maybe you need to take the time to learn more about the game's mechanics and how to better plan for combat.



BARRING That, there is a 3rd level spell for clerics, available at level 5, called "Create Food and Water."

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

***********
There is a timer for completing this game, centered around the amount of food available within game.

You can get enough food to rest TWICE before every encounter.

As it stands, the timer is meaningless. *Currently*
***********

Saying that, in the future, there will possibly be less food available in game.

At the same time, there SHOULD be difficulty options.

If you are still unable to play this game at your own pace after this, then maybe you need to take the time to learn more about the game's mechanics and how to better plan for combat.



BARRING That, there is a 3rd level spell for clerics, available at level 5, called "Create Food and Water."

Not to derail the topic, but good to see you around again BlueFox. Haven't seen ya in awhile.

[TheBlueFox]

I pop in every now and then, This was a topic I followed, so when it was rezzed my little notification got pinged.

But yeah, Wizards are good, they start slow and end up as literal gods. And you can only play to level 4 here. Just ONE More level, level 5, gets you friggin fireball...

[PepsiSucks]

Originally posted by xposethedarkside:

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

I'll say it again. Since no one seems to get it.

There is a timer on how much you can do in this game as a wizard. It's does not matter that the timer is long, it matters that it is there in the first place.

And? What's your point? Warlocks have the same timer, so do sorcerers, and clerics, and druids, so do arcane tricksters, or eldritch knights, even battle masters will run out of superiority die eventually. Everyone is on some sort of timer.
What's the alternative? Unlimited casting? Fireballs and lightning bolts every turn? Power word kills every turn?

I mean yeah... Unlimited Casting. Divinity 2 did it on a Cool Down system that I thought was amazing, encouraged strategy, and was otherwise totally not even cheap at all.

Here... You cast like, one or two different damage spells. And you cast them 3 or 4 times. And that's it.

Before there were HUNDREDS of different interactions that the spells had with each other.
Fire/Oil, Necromancy/Blood surfaces, Air/Water,

And you WANTED to use those interactions because you knew that it wouldn't cost you some of a finite resource to cast.

And you're right, having that finite resource being tied to everything makes utility spells a huge not worth it. Yeah sure you might win the fight a little easier, but it's going to cost you more provisions to use and exploit game dynamics that you otherwise would still have.

What's better? Scorching Ray to end the threat and loot? Or Sleep so that you can avoid a fight and get no loot?

Not to mention the Armor system was one Million times better. Now it's just Number go up by 1 = better derrr.

So instead you min/max for what you have access to and just shoot scorching ray at the baddies and hope you don't miss, because if you do? Well. that's more wasted provisions.

And don't even get me started on rolling a 3 or 4 dmg Ice Ray Cantrip on baddies that have 40hp or 50hp. It's totally useless.

Imo, Cantrips should be your bread and butter for damage, and Spells should be big fight changing things. (Both from the enemy, and for you the player).

Instead now, if you're playing wizard, you get like 3 or 4 turns in a fight. And after that you're useless. It just feels like terrible game design.

[TheBlueFox]

Dungeons and dragon's wasn't made with Multiple Elemental reactions in mind. There are SOME (Like casting Entangle/Web/grease and setting it on fire) but it was never something that was expanded upon especially since a single caster can only concentrate on one spells at a time. Instead, the spells themselves are so powerful on their own.

Sleep doesn't let you avoid a fight, sadly.

What sleep does is allow you get an AUTOCRIT on anyone you melee attack (Hey paladin, it's time to smite). It also breaks their concentration on spells (I believe, if not, it's supposed to), and it has NO save, affecting all creatures except Elves due to Fey Ancestry and I think the undead.

Arguably, sleep is better than scorching ray... in some situations.

But anyways, rolling low damage sucks, yeah. Martial classes get their attribute boosting their weapon damage, but casters don't.

Casters DO, however, Get increased damage as they level. Firebolt starts at 1d10, 2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 11, 4d10 at level 17. For a FREE spell cast at max range.

The reason cantrips aren't as good as martial weapons is because martial classes can't exactly look at a group of 4 enemies and fling a FIREBALL at them and deal 8d6 damage to ALL of them, half even if they save from it.

Martial classes can't root 5 enemies to the ground, taking them out of the fight.

Martial classes can't summon an elemental of a type that is resistant to an enemy or they're vulnerable to.


The ONLY reason you think wizards aren't powerful is because the game gives you levels 1-4, the ONLY TIER where wizards are underpowered

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Originally posted by xposethedarkside:

And? What's your point? Warlocks have the same timer, so do sorcerers, and clerics, and druids, so do arcane tricksters, or eldritch knights, even battle masters will run out of superiority die eventually. Everyone is on some sort of timer.
What's the alternative? Unlimited casting? Fireballs and lightning bolts every turn? Power word kills every turn?

I mean yeah... Unlimited Casting. Divinity 2 did it on a Cool Down system that I thought was amazing, encouraged strategy, and was otherwise totally not even cheap at all.

Here... You cast like, one or two different damage spells. And you cast them 3 or 4 times. And that's it.

Before there were HUNDREDS of different interactions that the spells had with each other.
Fire/Oil, Necromancy/Blood surfaces, Air/Water,

And you WANTED to use those interactions because you knew that it wouldn't cost you some of a finite resource to cast.

And you're right, having that finite resource being tied to everything makes utility spells a huge not worth it. Yeah sure you might win the fight a little easier, but it's going to cost you more provisions to use and exploit game dynamics that you otherwise would still have.

What's better? Scorching Ray to end the threat and loot? Or Sleep so that you can avoid a fight and get no loot?

Not to mention the Armor system was one Million times better. Now it's just Number go up by 1 = better derrr.

So instead you min/max for what you have access to and just shoot scorching ray at the baddies and hope you don't miss, because if you do? Well. that's more wasted provisions.

And don't even get me started on rolling a 3 or 4 dmg Ice Ray Cantrip on baddies that have 40hp or 50hp. It's totally useless.

Imo, Cantrips should be your bread and butter for damage, and Spells should be big fight changing things. (Both from the enemy, and for you the player).

Instead now, if you're playing wizard, you get like 3 or 4 turns in a fight. And after that you're useless. It just feels like terrible game design.

Oh wow, you really don't like to pay attention, do you?

I'm never for people who tell others to "git gud", but seriously...

You're complaining about the most powerful class in D&D.

There are SO MANY ways to play a Wizard.

You can CC pretty much the entire battlefield with Illusion/Enchantment.

You can blast everything to the 999 layers of the abyss with Evocation.

You can deal ridiculous amounts of sustained damage over time with Conjuration.

I mean, the things the Wizard can do are unlimited. Every school of magic can match or exceed what another class can do in a limited range. Transmutation can give you insane buffs, like Longstrider and Jump (movement speed is something I highly underrated until I played BG3 and saw just how important it was.)

It's been a truism that spellcasters in D&D have always been the most powerful characters in the long run, IF you can stomach the early game lull where they aren't as powerful.

But recent editions have sought to both close the power gap between other classes in later levels, and also provide a means for low level casters to keep up (thus cantrips, which are a recent addition, and then the idea of them scaling with level).

The Wizard will ALWAYS be the master of magic - other casters are there to provide avenues of deviance from pure magic.

In all honesty, the only class that can truly compete with the Wizard in terms of pure power is the Cleric, and only if you're obsessed with min/maxing. Turns out, there's certain weirdly overpowered privileges that only come with brownosing the divine.

[xposethedarkside]

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Originally posted by xposethedarkside:

And? What's your point? Warlocks have the same timer, so do sorcerers, and clerics, and druids, so do arcane tricksters, or eldritch knights, even battle masters will run out of superiority die eventually. Everyone is on some sort of timer.
What's the alternative? Unlimited casting? Fireballs and lightning bolts every turn? Power word kills every turn?

I mean yeah... Unlimited Casting. Divinity 2 did it on a Cool Down system that I thought was amazing, encouraged strategy, and was otherwise totally not even cheap at all.

Here... You cast like, one or two different damage spells. And you cast them 3 or 4 times. And that's it.

Before there were HUNDREDS of different interactions that the spells had with each other.
Fire/Oil, Necromancy/Blood surfaces, Air/Water,

And you WANTED to use those interactions because you knew that it wouldn't cost you some of a finite resource to cast.

And you're right, having that finite resource being tied to everything makes utility spells a huge not worth it. Yeah sure you might win the fight a little easier, but it's going to cost you more provisions to use and exploit game dynamics that you otherwise would still have.

What's better? Scorching Ray to end the threat and loot? Or Sleep so that you can avoid a fight and get no loot?

Not to mention the Armor system was one Million times better. Now it's just Number go up by 1 = better derrr.

So instead you min/max for what you have access to and just shoot scorching ray at the baddies and hope you don't miss, because if you do? Well. that's more wasted provisions.

And don't even get me started on rolling a 3 or 4 dmg Ice Ray Cantrip on baddies that have 40hp or 50hp. It's totally useless.

Imo, Cantrips should be your bread and butter for damage, and Spells should be big fight changing things. (Both from the enemy, and for you the player).

Instead now, if you're playing wizard, you get like 3 or 4 turns in a fight. And after that you're useless. It just feels like terrible game design.

I was being sarcastic. Unlimited casting in D&D would be unbelievably broken. D&D has used the Vancian magic system since it's inception over 40 years ago. Everything is balanced around resource management. That's not going to change.
That leaves you two choices, adapt, or give up.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Warlocks have the same timer

Warlocks have Eldritch Blast and Incantations that are not tied to any "timers". And their spell slots refresh on a short rest.

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

What's better? Scorching Ray to end the threat and loot? Or Sleep so that you can avoid a fight and get no loot?

Sleep is literally the best killing spell at early levels. AOE "paralysis" that allows your party to coup de grace enemies one by one.

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Instead now, if you're playing wizard, you get like 3 or 4 turns in a fight. And after that you're useless. It just feels like terrible game design.

You get 9 spell slots per long rest, counting Arcane Recovery, as a 4th level wizard. And considering you can long rest practically before every big fight in this game, that gives you plenty of stuff to do even besides cantrips.

At 10th level you'll be getting 20 spell slots per long rest. At 20th level - 32 spell slots. As the resting economy likely won't change, you'll have more spells available than you know what to do with.

[PepsiSucks]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Warlocks have the same timer

*Warlocks have Eldritch Blast and Incantations that are not tied to any "timers". And
their spell slots refresh on a short rest.*

Short rests are numbered too. (you only get two per long rest).

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

What's better? Scorching Ray to end the threat and loot? Or Sleep so that you can avoid a fight and get no loot?

*Sleep is literally the best killing spell at early levels. AOE "paralysis" that allows
your party to coup de grace enemies one by one.*

I'm not arguing that the fight won't be easier or faster without sleep. I am saying, that Sleep does no damage, and it costs you a spell.

It's like this. In every fight (for a wizard) there are two things that limit the duration that you can continue on in the fight.

1) Is your durability. The fight won't last very long if you're dead in 2 or 3 turns.
2) Is your finite amount of offensive resources.

Lets take another really famous strategy game. Chess. Arguably the MOST famous strategy game.

Chess does not limit you based on YOUR number of moves with a specific piece. It limits you based on the number of your pieces on the board. You do not get a finite amount of moves for your Queen, or your Rook, or Bishop, or Knight. Instead you only get two of these pieces, and in the case of the Queen only one. And if your opponent can counter them and take these pieces then you are limited. But it's not like you're breaking the rules if you like moving your queen a lot. So why should you be breaking the rules if you like using spells?

The spells are too powerful you might say. Well, I would argue that they are not strong enough. Remember, there is chance involved at multiple stages in not just the outcome of the spell, but in weather or not the spell will even land in the first place.

The thing about the combat for Wizards In BG3, is that they are basically the Queen. Every other piece you get two of. But you only get one queen, so the knight, and rook are more "tanky" because if you loose one, you still have one more. The same as the Rouge or Fighter can take a few more hits than the Wizard.

You see the analogy I'm building here right? It's not that there is some arbitrary number of moves that limits your pieces ie: characters. It's that characters' set of abilities and how you manage them.

Wizards especially, and to a lesser extent everyone else as well. Is not just limited by their own (survivability & commitment) vs (profitability & effect) of a desired outcome. But they are also limited by how often they can be useful.

And that is the crux of my argument. Having a limit on how often a character or player can be useful is bad game design. It does not matter how high that limit is, It matters that it is there in the first place.

Originally posted by PepsiSucks:

Instead now, if you're playing wizard, you get like 3 or 4 turns in a fight. And after that you're useless. It just feels like terrible game design.

*You get 9 spell slots per long rest, counting Arcane Recovery, as a 4th level wizard.
And considering you can long rest practically before every big fight in this game,
that gives you plenty of stuff to do even besides cantrips.*

At 10th level you'll be getting 20 spell slots per long rest. At 20th level - 32 spell slots. As the resting economy likely won't change, you'll have more spells available than you know what to do with.

10th and 20th level Wizard is a Pointless Conversation because the game has only released Act 1. And until this game-play exists I don't see the point in including it in the conversation.

Edit: formatting

[TheBlueFox]

But that's the thing. you don't even need to wait for 10th level...

At level 5 Wizards get access to third level spells. That's Fireball, Sleet storm, Lightning bolt COUNTERSPELL, Fear, Fly, and Hypnotic pattern.

These spells *END COMBAT* And I don't mean like, click the spell and move on, I mean that after these spells resolve, everyone else is just "Cleanup".

At level 7 they get arguably one of the BEST crowd control and area denial spells in the game. BLACK TENTACLES. 20 feet radius of difficult terrain means it takes 40 feet of movement to escape it. If they stay inside, they get restrained, and need to waste turns breaking out. Each turn they cant, they take damage... It's absolutely magnificent.

Conjure elementals, Dimension door, GREATER INVISIBILITY. Ice storm, Phantasmal Killer.

These are things that martial classes cannot do, ever. The reason wizards need to rest is because when they cast spells, combat ends.



But I get it, we only have level 4 right now. But you're talking about a class that always been slow to start.

Magic users, as Wizards used to be called, used to start their career with the ability to use DAGGERS and slings, No Armor, and ONE SPELL PER DAY. Not rest, DAY. 24 hours.

They are the weakest class in Tier 1, but some of the strongest in tier 2, and by Tier 3 the gap just grows.

[Arlen]

two words - resource management. Your wizard has no damn need to be casting its load of spell slots for trash fights, your cantrips are phenominal, have absolutely no limit on casting, many have secondary effects. Wizards are not underpowered, you just have to learn how to play one.

[WeenerTuck813]

Wizards are probably the most OP class in the game.

What remains as my favorite playthrough is a Gith Wizard who can use Gith plate for 17 AC, buy Armour of Agathis from a vendor and sport Sword of Justice. 14 14 14 16 8 8 stats

Full Wizard casting. 17 AC without Mage armor, 19 AC with Armor of faith. Spamable Armor of Faith to proc arcane Ward, AoA for 20 Temp HP with return on hit cold damage. Like - you think Druids get OP tanking HP? Try having spammable Armor of Agathis that procs arcane Ward throughout the fight…

I can cast cantrips for range and for effects (fire, slow, disadv to UD) and can melee with a 2H sword up close, and still retain full Wizard casting.

And, If that wasn’t enough, I take Friends as a cantrip (since I can just learn other cantrips) so my social is OP even with -1 charisma. I’m a wonderfully flavorful RP dynamic duo with Laezel, and the Fighter (with all the Goblin Absolute items and shattered flail) with the Wizard (who has learned healing word and wears some of the healing buff items) make for the most OP dynamic duo in combat ever. A melee Wizard with modest damage on a 2H sword with a 60+ temp HP pool that returns 10 cold dmg whenever struck with melee and has 19 ac…paired with a 21 AC (17 base, 21 with Absolute shield) Fighter who heals self when she attacks and has all her Superiority moves and is spreading Bane on enemies (Gloves of absolute and AoE shield effect). It’s balls deep fun in combat

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

Wizards are probably the most OP class in the game.

What remains as my favorite playthrough is a Gith Wizard who can use Gith plate for 17 AC, buy Armour of Agathis from a vendor and sport Sword of Justice. 14 14 14 16 8 8 stats

Full Wizard casting. 17 AC without Mage armor, 19 AC with Armor of faith. Spamable Armor of Faith to proc arcane Ward, AoA for 20 Temp HP with return on hit cold damage. Like - you think Druids get OP tanking HP? Try having spammable Armor of Agathis that procs arcane Ward throughout the fight…

I can cast cantrips for range and for effects (fire, slow, disadv to UD) and can melee with a 2H sword up close, and still retain full Wizard casting.

And, If that wasn’t enough, I take Friends as a cantrip (since I can just learn other cantrips) so my social is OP even with -1 charisma. I’m a wonderfully flavorful RP dynamic duo with Laezel, and the Fighter (with all the Goblin Absolute items and shattered flail) with the Wizard (who has learned healing word and wears some of the healing buff items) make for the most OP dynamic duo in combat ever. A melee Wizard with modest damage on a 2H sword with a 60+ temp HP pool that returns 10 cold dmg whenever struck with melee and has 19 ac…paired with a 21 AC (17 base, 21 with Absolute shield) Fighter who heals self when she attacks and has all her Superiority moves and is spreading Bane on enemies (Gloves of absolute and AoE shield effect). It’s balls deep fun in combat

You are basing whether or not a class is OP based on a Meta build, all classes are OP by Meta metrics. You have to base it off of a standard human since it's considered the average or middle ground in terms of having no special perks or bonuses.

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by Tech-Priest:

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

Wizards are probably the most OP class in the game.

What remains as my favorite playthrough is a Gith Wizard who can use Gith plate for 17 AC, buy Armour of Agathis from a vendor and sport Sword of Justice. 14 14 14 16 8 8 stats

Full Wizard casting. 17 AC without Mage armor, 19 AC with Armor of faith. Spamable Armor of Faith to proc arcane Ward, AoA for 20 Temp HP with return on hit cold damage. Like - you think Druids get OP tanking HP? Try having spammable Armor of Agathis that procs arcane Ward throughout the fight…

I can cast cantrips for range and for effects (fire, slow, disadv to UD) and can melee with a 2H sword up close, and still retain full Wizard casting.

And, If that wasn’t enough, I take Friends as a cantrip (since I can just learn other cantrips) so my social is OP even with -1 charisma. I’m a wonderfully flavorful RP dynamic duo with Laezel, and the Fighter (with all the Goblin Absolute items and shattered flail) with the Wizard (who has learned healing word and wears some of the healing buff items) make for the most OP dynamic duo in combat ever. A melee Wizard with modest damage on a 2H sword with a 60+ temp HP pool that returns 10 cold dmg whenever struck with melee and has 19 ac…paired with a 21 AC (17 base, 21 with Absolute shield) Fighter who heals self when she attacks and has all her Superiority moves and is spreading Bane on enemies (Gloves of absolute and AoE shield effect). It’s balls deep fun in combat

You are basing whether or not a class is OP based on a Meta build, all classes are OP by Meta metrics. You have to base it off of a standard human since it's considered the average or middle ground in terms of having no special perks or bonuses.

No, I’m not.
I said wizards are OP
Then I said, my favorite play through was as a Wizard, it was like this. And I talked about a meta build.

No where did I said a meta build was why they were OP. You drew that distinction all on you’re own.

My point was wizards are very flexible, and here’s a demonstration of some of the things they can do. Access to all the spells allows for a lot of different things.