Been confused about the condition lasting turns

[Rillifane]

Well, I 've been pretty confused about the save-make mechanism of the the game since the release. For example, if I successfully web an enemy, shouldn't it stay webbed at least one turn and then make a save to see if it escape? But now it seems, aside the save it make at receiving the spell, the enemy make the save check at the start of its turn(not after), that means it make another save check to see if it get webbed. That is, it has to fail the save twice to be actually get caught by the web.

Could someone enlighten me on if it's just how the rule work or it's another bug elude the Dev at the moment?

[Jest]

I think that's just something you have to consider with the order of turns. I haven't used the web action, but if it is a 100% guaranteed hit, the saving throw for the initial placement makes sense. The saving throw requirement for their turn makes sense as well, as that is something you see commonly in DnD.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by Bakamitai:

I think that's just something you have to consider with the order of turns. I haven't used the web action, but if it is a 100% guaranteed hit, the saving throw for the initial placement makes sense. The saving throw requirement for their turn makes sense as well, as that is something you see commonly in DnD.

Actually it's not only the web but other spells as well. My point is, should the save happening at the enemy's turn(which checks if a webbed enemy escape) trigger at the start of its turn or end of the turn? If it's the previous, it gets two chances making the save before it can be locked on the ground.

[Mosey]

I'm not positive when it comes to Web in particular, but I do know for certain other spells they get a saving throw when you cast it and at the beginning of their turn. Specifically I'm thinking of Moonbeam, but I imagine it's true for other spells as well.

Web is a little weird, in that even if they pass their save they still get slowed. Not sure how many saves they make for it specifically, but I suspect it's based on movement because I have noticed that if the initial save is passed they'll walk out and occasionally fail a save to be held while walking through it.

So probably something like an initial save versus the spell, then another save every 'x' units of movement through it. If I pass the initial save on web, I don't seem to make any more saves against it unless I try to move out of it without a jump.

[Jest]

I see what you mean. I do agree that making two saving throw checks is a bit ridiculous. Especially in a game with percentage chance, the ability to get two chances at canceling a move can turn the tide of a fight real quick.

[dolby]

Most of the time enemies will just walk out of normal web spell on their next turn if it even lands... So in short it's a kinda waste of action and is crappy.. but spider web is totally different story that one is actullty worth it cos it's bigger and you don't need concentration for it.

The problem right now it's that log doesn't show all rolls and web was one of those...so it's hard to know. Maybe they fixed the log already... not sure on that cos i haven't played the game since the druid release. i think normally they need to make save at the start of thier turn if they are already in webed for whatever reason... And most of the time they will succeed! This is why they can just walk away and the slow doesn't do much due to the tiny size of normal web...

[TheBlueFox]

Rules as intended is that enemies are supposed to save from debilitating effects at the end of their turns.

Unless stated otherwise by the spell. Web specifically is at the start of turn. But hold person is at end for example.

Enemies save from damage whenever it is applied which is often at the start of turns.

But crowd control effects are supposed to be saved at end of turn.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by Mosey:

I'm not positive when it comes to Web in particular, but I do know for certain other spells they get a saving throw when you cast it and at the beginning of their turn. Specifically I'm thinking of Moonbeam, but I imagine it's true for other spells as well.

Web is a little weird, in that even if they pass their save they still get slowed. Not sure how many saves they make for it specifically, but I suspect it's based on movement because I have noticed that if the initial save is passed they'll walk out and occasionally fail a save to be held while walking through it.

So probably something like an initial save versus the spell, then another save every 'x' units of movement through it. If I pass the initial save on web, I don't seem to make any more saves against it unless I try to move out of it without a jump.

I believe MoonBeam is another issue and apparently bugged. By original design,It triggers only at the start of enemy turns, not the time it is fired or moved. The way it is implemented now just let MB doing double damages; one at fire; another trigger when the enemy start its turn.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by dolby:

Most of the time enemies will just walk out of normal web spell on their next turn if it even lands... So in short it's a kinda waste of action and is crappy.. but spider web is totally different story that one is actullty worth it cos it's bigger and you don't need concentration for it.

The problem right now it's that log doesn't show all rolls and web was one of those...so it's hard to know. Maybe they fixed the log already... not sure on that cos i haven't played the game since the druid release. i think normally they need to make save at the start of thier turn if they are already in web for whatever reason... And most of the time they will succeed! This is why they can just walk away and the slow doesn't do much due to the tiny size of normal web...

I guess part of the reason is the web check only triggers when the enemy is webbed. So if the enemy get caught when the spell is fired, it get another chance when its turn comes(at the start of turn); but if it hasn't get caught the check is made later(at the end of turn). That means the enemies have to fail twice in consecutive order to get actually webbed.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Rules as intended is that enemies are supposed to save from debilitating effects at the end of their turns.

Unless stated otherwise by the spell. Web specifically is at the start of turn. But hold person is at end for example.

Enemies save from damage whenever it is applied which is often at the start of turns.

But crowd control effects are supposed to be saved at end of turn.

Oh thanks. From the description, web should be checked at the start of enemy turns, not when the spell is cast. But now how it acts is that the check is made when being fired; but those get webbed is given another chance at the start of its turn while those haven't get webbed don't receive the necessary check at the start of their turn. That means the enemies have to fail twice to get caught.

Haven't thoroughly test all spells but I guess many spells don't have their condition checks at the end of enemy turn as it should be, like the color spray, which make it pretty pointless.

Just make a test, hold person is also checked at the start of the enemies turn, which means they have to fail the save twice to be hold. oh craps.......

[Mosey]

Originally posted by Rillifane:

I believe MoonBeam is another issue and apparently bugged. By original design,It triggers only at the start of enemy turns, not the time it is fired or moved. The way it is implemented now just let MB doing double damages; one at fire; another trigger when the enemy start its turn.

Agreed, I've made posts about how Moonbeam is dealing double damage and it is pretty OP.

Still, it at least shows us that SOME spells save at the beginning of their turn, even if that really makes the spell description a bit confusing.

Blade ward is another case that's a bit confusing with duration. If you're already in combat, it takes an action. If you're not in combat, but you're stealthed in an area near the combat, it basically costs no action and you get two turns of it.

Janky.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Rillifane:

Originally posted by dolby:

Most of the time enemies will just walk out of normal web spell on their next turn if it even lands... So in short it's a kinda waste of action and is crappy.. but spider web is totally different story that one is actullty worth it cos it's bigger and you don't need concentration for it.

The problem right now it's that log doesn't show all rolls and web was one of those...so it's hard to know. Maybe they fixed the log already... not sure on that cos i haven't played the game since the druid release. i think normally they need to make save at the start of thier turn if they are already in web for whatever reason... And most of the time they will succeed! This is why they can just walk away and the slow doesn't do much due to the tiny size of normal web...

I guess part of the reason is the web check only triggers when the enemy is webbed. So if the enemy get caught when the spell is fired, it get another chance when its turn comes(at the start of turn); but if it hasn't get caught the check is made later(at the end of turn). That means the enemies have to fail twice in consecutive order to get actually webbed.

Well, i just know that before Bg 3. Web spell was always great spell. Like the one from the spider pet or druid... But now the 5e the wizard version is meh... Passable if you use it on prone targets.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Web should actually work like Spike Growth (slows movement through the webbed area regardless of whether they make the save or not, plus a save should be made like every five feet you walk through it) in addition to forcing a save on cast.

5e Web doesn't work like spike growth; actually the save check happens at the start of each enemy turn(dexterity check 1st and then strength check) if it stay in the area and it cost an action trying to break free.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Originally posted by Rillifane:

Oh thanks. From the description, web should be checked at the start of enemy turns, not when the spell is cast. But now how it acts is that the check is made when being fired; but those get webbed is given another chance at the start of its turn while those haven't get webbed don't receive the necessary check at the start of their turn. That means the enemies have to fail twice to get caught.

Haven't thoroughly test all spells but I guess many spells don't have their condition checks at the end of enemy turn as it should be, like the color spray, which make it pretty pointless.

Just make a test, hold person is also checked at the start of the enemies turn, which means they have to fail the save twice to be hold. oh craps.......

Not exactly.

They only have to fail one saving throw to get caught - but they have to fail repeatedly to stay caught.

The ease with which enemies pass saving throws in this game is one reason I haven't used much CC spells, they tend to just waste spell slots that are usually better spent on an attack spell, healing spell, or some other utility spell such as Longstrider or Jump that is guaranteed to give you some benefit. Charm and Sleep are also highly underpowered (Charm because it only affects the monster's attitude towards the caster - as per the rules - but it will still attack your companions, but if they attack it then the spell will break...and sleep because the monsters all have overtuned levels of hp in BG3 so you can barely put anything to sleep with the Sleep spell. Sleep should be able to put like 3-4 goblins to sleep, instead you're lucky to get two with how many hp they have).

Fear is ok since it can trigger AOO but doesn't really last long enough.

The one cool thing about Web though is that you can light it on fire for some AoE burn damage - the most efficient way to do this, however, is not with the Web spell, but with a Druid in Spider form since it can freely spit webs every turn.

Take a look at hold person; and it does take two fail saves to hold the enemy. The first check is when the spell cast. The second is at the start of enemy turn. Even if you successfully hold the enemy when casting the spell, if the enemy successfully make the save check at the start of its turn, it breaks free and don't even lose a turn.
That's why I say it takes two saves to let the enemy actually get hold for one turn.
The check should be made at the end of enemy turn, not at the start of its turn.

Web is another story; the Dev wrongfully mark it as a fire trigger spell(Moon beam has similar issue); and those in the web area doesn't seem to receive the web check as they should unless they are already webbed, which give them another chance to break free and act normally. That's why I say it takes two saves to let the enemy actually get caught for an entire turn.

Spell like color spray is worse. Since it only lasts for one turn, if the check is make at the start of targets turn, they lose the condition right away at their turn and don't get hindered by the spell at their turn at all.

You can test the spells to observe what happen if the enemy fail the save when spell cast but successfully make the save at the start of its turn, then you will see what I mean. To make it clearer, don't bring the companions but do it solo, it will be more obvious.

[Rillifane]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Originally posted by Rillifane:

5e Web doesn't work like spike growth; actually the save check happens at the start of each enemy turn(dexterity check 1st and then strength check) if it stay in the area and it cost an action trying to break free.

Do you know what the word "should" means? Should I provide you with a dictionary link?

"Each creature that starts its turn in the webs or that enters them during its turn must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is restrained as long as it remains in the webs or until it breaks free.

A creature restrained by the webs can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. If it succeeds, it is no longer restrained."

A quote from the handbook. I will let you interpret what "should" mean here.

[RealDealBreaker]

Originally posted by Rillifane:

Originally posted by Bakamitai:

I think that's just something you have to consider with the order of turns. I haven't used the web action, but if it is a 100% guaranteed hit, the saving throw for the initial placement makes sense. The saving throw requirement for their turn makes sense as well, as that is something you see commonly in DnD.

Actually it's not only the web but other spells as well. My point is, should the save happening at the enemy's turn(which checks if a webbed enemy escape) trigger at the start of its turn or end of the turn? If it's the previous, it gets two chances making the save before it can be locked on the ground.

Save at the start or end of the turn is specified in the individual spells (i.e., it varies). For web specifically, the save is at the start of turn or upon moving into the area. Hold person is an example of a spell the specifies save at the end of each turn.