Hiding in battle is too easy.

[Harrais]

I would love to see the hide action as an action (instead of bonus action) it is too silly and easy to cheese fights with just hiding after attacking again and again. I do want to play a sneaky playthrough, but I want to feel that I'm outsmarting the enemies, not cheesing them.

Also enemies should walk to the last place they say an enemy if they can't see any viable target. Or maybe roll a perception check. Having enemies literally standing still is kinda dumb.

[SnarkOne]

+1
I like the idea of rolling for a perception check to prevent people from hiding, although implementing this may prove to be a logistical nightmare with too many bugs

[Lax]

Stealth in general seems a little strong to me. Then again, it's entirely optional so I'm not sweating it.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

That's one way to do it - but I'd rather see enemies spend more time searching for the character.

[id795078477]

.. and I keep telling that there must be some brakes on the whole sneak mechs ordeal. NPCs searching longer will just provide with an inconvenience at best (after all, PC is free to just completely disengage and leave the area after attacking) or won't work at worst (terrain abuse / moving barrels and whatnot to mess with navmeshes)

I agree that sneak must not be an easy thing to do in battle, if possible at all. I mean - how in the world you can even hide in battle? Are enemies supposed to suddenly become totally blind or oblivious - possibly both? In NWN (aka 3.5e) there was an additional feat for that "hide in plain sight" which was only possible to take with the specific elite class so PC would need to do a lot of tradeoffs and then still there was a check stealth+hide vs spot+listen.

[Amix]

Too many similar threads with no good answer ever.
You need to think here as D&D system. Why avoid it when necessary? NPCs no need to search because:
It is clearly stealth Vs perception dice roll. Higher dice score wins & when enemy perception dice roll succeeds it automatically breaks your hiding status.
Then you will complain that hiding is useless. All will be done on higher difficulties I think so. I believe it exists in early access for a reason. They want game to be easy. LOL
A challenge will be resisting use of it.

[asdf]

Personally, I think hiding in combat should be changed so that you only sneak at the beginning of the following turn (ie. you spend an action hiding on one turn, but the enemies still see you for a full round and then you only actually become invisible if you're still out of their sight for an entire round). I think if an enemy is chasing you and you're close enough to the enemy to be seen within a single turn, then I don't see any good reason (either thematic or gameplay) to imagine you'd be able to sneak away from them.

If it worked that way I don't think it would really have any effect on the legitimate cases where you could sneak and remove almost all of the really abusive cases.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Dellecross:

.. and I keep telling that there must be some brakes on the whole sneak mechs ordeal. NPCs searching longer will just provide with an inconvenience at best (after all, PC is free to just completely disengage and leave the area after attacking) or won't work at worst (terrain abuse / moving barrels and whatnot to mess with navmeshes)

I agree that sneak must not be an easy thing to do in battle, if possible at all. I mean - how in the world you can even hide in battle? Are enemies supposed to suddenly become totally blind or oblivious - possibly both? In NWN (aka 3.5e) there was an additional feat for that "hide in plain sight" which was only possible to take with the specific elite class so PC would need to do a lot of tradeoffs and then still there was a check stealth+hide vs spot+listen.

Well, eventually we'll get the Skulker feat which will literally allow us to shoot from stealth and not break it at all (sometimes happens now depending on circumstances, but with Skulker it's virtually guaranteed not to break your stealth). That means you'll be able to shoot indefinitely without even entering combat.

A couple of things need to be done - enemies need to spend more time actively searching, to force more stealth ability checks every turn. They also need bigger vision cones, and an additional "hearing radius" around them so that you can't just stealth right behind their back every turn.

If Larian puts in the time to actually develop it, it can totally be done. I personally think it's worth it.

Merely reverting Hide to a full action will only partially work - it will make stealth sniping more tedious, and you'll have to kite and retreat more often, which will just draw out combat longer, but it will not eliminate the core of the issue, which is enemies not searching. Also, how about giving enemies abilities that can ruin stealth, like Faerie Fire? True Sight? A bag of flour?

[Louis]

The issue isn't really the bonus action, it's just NPC behaviour to stealthing in combat in general that makes it too strong. After that's fixed the bonus action is a non issue and probably better for the game.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

Well, eventually we'll get the Skulker feat which will literally allow us to shoot from stealth and not break it at all (sometimes happens now depending on circumstances, but with Skulker it's virtually guaranteed not to break your stealth). That means you'll be able to shoot indefinitely without even entering combat.

This also shouldn't be possible being that as soon as you land a shot people should 1) know you're out there somewhere, and 2) potentially know where the shot came from...both of which should throw you into combat as they now have some sort of sense that you are there. There shouldn't be any scenario outside of magical means that can't break stealth.

Skulker:
• You can try to hide when you are only lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.

• When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.

• Dim light doesn't impose disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) bonuses made with sight.

So yes you can still break it, it's just that your missed shots don't reveal your location.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

A couple of things need to be done - enemies need to spend more time actively searching, to force more stealth ability checks every turn. They also need bigger vision cones, and an additional "hearing radius" around them so that you can't just stealth right behind their back every turn.

Yes on the spend more time searching, but cones need to be realistic not necessarily bigger. Hearing radius should also be a thing.

Originally posted by pandariuskairos:

If Larian puts in the time to actually develop it, it can totally be done. I personally think it's worth it.

Merely reverting Hide to a full action will only partially work - it will make stealth sniping more tedious, and you'll have to kite and retreat more often, which will just draw out combat longer, but it will not eliminate the core of the issue, which is enemies not searching. Also, how about giving enemies abilities that can ruin stealth, like Faerie Fire? True Sight? A bag of flour?

Nothing is going to prevent that...if you want to kite you're not really going to be able to do so in stealth without magical assistance...or you shouldn't be able to anyway. No matter what you *should* enter combat if you fire a shot particularly if it lands. Even actively camouflaging yourself, once a shot is taken and more so if it lands, should trigger a search reaction. I do agree that said trigger should prompt the use of things like faerie fire, true sight, etc.

[Space Dog]

Originally posted by Louis:

The issue isn't really the bonus action, it's just NPC behaviour to stealthing in combat in general that makes it too strong. After that's fixed the bonus action is a non issue and probably better for the game.

Hide as a Bonus Action is an issue because it's a Rogue-only ability that was given to everyone. Best way to ruin a class is to give their stuff to everyone so they don't matter anymore.

And being able to both attack and hide on the same turn is VERY powerful compared to not being able to do it. Hence it needs to be a class specialty. If you want your archer Fighter to be a ninja assassin, you can multi-class two levels of Rogue for the ability. Giving this kind of strong ability for free to everyone just undermines character builds.

[Mosey]

If Rogue only gets one sneak attack every two rounds, there's really no point in ever playing a Rogue. It's the main source of their damage, so hardcore nerfing that will just mean one plays something else.

NPCs could search better, but frankly even when they manage to 'find' me I'm able to make my checks as long as I'm in cover. Give the NPC's better DC's to find me, and you just made stealth a useless skill for every non-rogue. It's already basically useless without the proficiency or if you're wearing decent armor.

Stealth is indeed strong, but NPC pathing and multi-level maps with limited access is more the culprit than the stealth mechanics themselves. One doesn't even need to 'hide', one can simply move behind a wall from far away to negate all damage giving you plenty to time to range them down before they get to you.

A rogue out of stealth is basically a free kill to a lot of NPC's. It's really rogue's main defensive maneuver and without it they are pretty much sitting ducks with middling AC and not great HP. Maybe not the worst HP, or worst AC, but not 'good enough' to go toe-to-toe with NPC's in melee most of the time.

Oh, and let us not forget that if you're in an NPC's view cone you keep making stealth checks until you fail regardless of the turn order.

Originally posted by Space Dog:

Hide as a Bonus Action is an issue because it's a Rogue-only ability that was given to everyone. Best way to ruin a class is to give their stuff to everyone so they don't matter anymore.

Also this, although I'll be sad if/when my Wizard can no longer cast a spell then run and hide around a corner.

[dulany67]

I used to agree with this, but I really don't anymore.

Solasta made it that you couldn't hide at all after combat began. It was fine, but it is not as fun as BG3. There is already a stealth check when the vision cone passes over your party member, and they have little chance of succeeding it if they are not a rogue or ranger. Also, there are fights where the party member can turn a corner and be out of sight of the enemy. Isn't that a natural time to hide? If you want to make it an action for every character except the rogue, I can live with it. But I don't think it's really necessary at this point.

Just to note, I remember being in fights where multiple people were involved on both sides, and they were chaotic affairs where it was impossible to be aware of the position of everyone on the opposite side. It was not unusual to be hit from behind. (I was much younger, btw)

The real problem is that combat can be initiated by one character from stealth and immediately re-stealth. Personally, I saw better AI when this happens in the latest patch, but people are going to find a way to cheese if it's in their nature. Better to just let Larian balance the combat as they see fit.

[asdf]

Originally posted by dulany67:

I used to agree with this, but I really don't anymore.

Solasta made it that you couldn't hide at all after combat began. It was fine, but it is not as fun as BG3. There is already a stealth check when the vision cone passes over your party member, and they have little chance of succeeding it if they are not a rogue or ranger. Also, there are fights where the party member can turn a corner and be out of sight of the enemy. Isn't that a natural time to hide? If you want to make it an action for every character except the rogue, I can live with it. But I don't think it's really necessary at this point.

Just to note, I remember being in fights where multiple people were involved on both sides, and they were chaotic affairs where it was impossible to be aware of the position of everyone on the opposite side. It was not unusual to be hit from behind. (I was much younger, btw)

The real problem is that combat can be initiated by one character from stealth and immediately re-stealth. Personally, I saw better AI when this happens in the latest patch, but people are going to find a way to cheese if it's in their nature. Better to just let Larian balance the combat as they see fit.

Personally I'd argue in its current state using hide during combat in any form is cheesing. There is no 'non-cheesy' way to use it.

[dulany67]

Originally posted by asdf:

Originally posted by dulany67:

I used to agree with this, but I really don't anymore.

Solasta made it that you couldn't hide at all after combat began. It was fine, but it is not as fun as BG3. There is already a stealth check when the vision cone passes over your party member, and they have little chance of succeeding it if they are not a rogue or ranger. Also, there are fights where the party member can turn a corner and be out of sight of the enemy. Isn't that a natural time to hide? If you want to make it an action for every character except the rogue, I can live with it. But I don't think it's really necessary at this point.

Just to note, I remember being in fights where multiple people were involved on both sides, and they were chaotic affairs where it was impossible to be aware of the position of everyone on the opposite side. It was not unusual to be hit from behind. (I was much younger, btw)

The real problem is that combat can be initiated by one character from stealth and immediately re-stealth. Personally, I saw better AI when this happens in the latest patch, but people are going to find a way to cheese if it's in their nature. Better to just let Larian balance the combat as they see fit.

Personally I'd argue in its current state using hide during combat in any form is cheesing. There is no 'non-cheesy' way to use it.

I would simply disagree. As I said, if the character moves behind a wall, in the context of multiple opponents on both sides, hiding is not so unusual or unreasonable.

[Patrick]

I don't think you should be able to see an enemy's vision cone and the enemies should move around more, to make it harder to guess where they are actually looking. They should also be making passive perception (which is all senses) checks each round, and if they know someone is there, active perception checks. I also like the idea of using spells like faerie fire - Bg1/2 did something like that ages ago. I think one big 'abuse' is turn-based mode: as it stands, you can turn it on, walk behind an enemy and surprise them. They should be able to reactively perceive you and respond immediately if they detect you as you are busy moving *in your turn*. If they are doing that now, it doesn't work well - even my armoured characters can pull this off. Essentially almost every fight starts with my party positioning and then getting the first shot off. That's just not believable for so many combats. I think only stealthy characters should really be able to pull this off consistently, and even then, they should have to deal with perception checks as they inch across the map. Some creatures also have extremely high passive perception, or things like tremorsense (bullete) so you shouldn't really be able to sneak up on them at all (unless you are very lucky) .