Is killing goblin children.......

[cire87]

Is killing goblin children considered lawful good or chaotic evil ?

[Destroying Angel]

Practical is our calling, judgement is a luxury.

[B Rad Mojad]

Oprindeligt skrevet af GrandMajora:

Oprindeligt skrevet af B Rad Mojad:

Yes, doing the right thing is often not the same as doing what's convenient. Murdering a bunch of humanoid children is still an evil act.

To quote a scene from Warhams

"I am a warp entity! Daemon is a slur, sir!"

"I don't care, I value my soul!"

-----------------------

Yes, SOME of the good deities might be upset with it, but not to the level of outrage. The Seldarine cast out Lolth and all those who remained loyal to her. Changing the dark elves on a level that went beyond physical and even affected their very spirits. Drow don't experience trance the same way that surface elves do, they only experience a sense of cold darkness.

Garl Glittergold decided to punish the Kobolds for the enslavement of his people, by trapping one of their most beloved deities in an eternal prison as part of a prank. Igniting a scathing race war between the two people that has endured to this very day.

Moradin and Laduguer hate each other, to the point where the former cast the later into exile. And with Laduguer being the chief patron of the Duergar, it stands to reason they're not held in particularly high regard either.

And then of course, the Orcs, who even before Gruumsh commanded them to conquer the world, the other gods were already mocking his people, and making jokes about how there was no place for them to live in Faerun.

It's not just the mortals who are susceptible to racism, it is the very gods themselves. And if Corellon tells me that it's okay to slaughter every Orc and Lolth worshiping Drow I come across, and I can still retire to Arvandor when I die, then who am I to argue with him?

I could see the "Good" racial deities being more indifferent to the murder of humanoid children if they were members of an enemy race; unsurprisingly racial deities are more racist than non-racial deities as each would believe their own race to be best. Even they would know that it's not a good act though, at best they would accept it as a grim necessity much like if I were to find a nest of baby mice in my house.

[NixAhmose]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

2. No it doesn't. Lawful Good characters are bound by the law or a code, and will look for the best way to do things, working within a system of rules and laws. Neutral good characters don't follow the rules if the rules are restrictive and get in the way but will follow them if it serves the greatest good whereas chaotic good characters do what they feel is right no matter who or what says otherwise, whether it's the guards of a town, what the priests are teaching them, or a local lord enforcing his will, the chaotic good rejects the system entirely but still tries to help people.

And all of that matches up with what I said. Whether it be through the law, indifference of the law, or in spite of the law, good characters will do seek the best possible outcome for everyone, including their enemies if possible.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

Neutral characters don't help people out of the goodness of their hearts. They may help someone if it's in their interests or if they can kill two birds with one stone but they won't go out of their way to do so, nor will they try to make people suffer needlessly and don't take joy or pleasure from it.

That also goes in line with what I said.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

Fact of the matter is, there are exceptions to the rule of a race being evil or not on the individual level, but the gods and the universe will not declare you evil or neutral if you kill goblins, gnolls or orcs indiscriminately since they are evil races, or their souls are largely bound to an evil god.

But gods aren't what determine your character's alignment in DnD. You are not evil just because Bane thinks you're evil. Alignment is a meta-phyiscal concept that, while connected to the gods, isn't dictated by them. The universe itself is what dictates alignments, not characters or gods.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

Could those goblin kids end up good? Yes. The likelihood of that happening are incredibly small, however, and killing them is not an evil act.

Never said it was. I said it was a neutral or evil act, but not a good one. A good act would have been to try to get them out of that situration and rehibilatate them, a neutral act would have killed them because of the potential threat they posed in the future, and a evil act would have been to just kill them solely for being goblins.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

This discussion shows the cognitive dissonance I was talking about with new players I bring to my table. It takes a bit for new people I play with to get used to the fact that their world-view of morality has absolutely no bearing on D&D since morality is an objective force of nature that not even gods and devils can escape from.

You keep flopping on your definitions of what alignment is in dnd. One minute your saying gods are the ones who declare what alignment you are, the next you say gods have no control over it.
Yes, alignment in dnd is not subjective, but fealty to a god and their opinion on the matter isn't what determines alignments, its the universe itself that determines it based on a combination of an individual's intentions and actions. If they try to follow the law or a strict code of ethics, they're a lawful character. If they go against the law or any notion of ethical rules, their a chaotic character. If they try to solve things in the best out come for everyone, including their enemies if possible,they're a good character. If they try to solve things in the best outcome for themselves at the cost of others, they're an evil character. If they fall somewhere in between or are generally indifferent to either side, they are a neutral character.

[Destroying Angel]

The only real reason to eradicate something is because it is a threat, and to become a threat, it must be equal, or capable of becoming an equal or beyond.

[Dragon Master]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Hararddex:

he asked if it was okay to kill goblin children not which goblin children
how is that any diffrent then humans?

should we kill ourselves because a few humans are POS?

One, that question has nothing to do with goblins, and two, you are conflating real world issues and morality with a fictional setting where morality is not subjective at all, and is a force of nature as powerful as gravity itself.

I do find it telling that you see people of color as the equivalent of goblins.

[Destroying Angel]

Gingers are people without color;) You degrade my existence by bring up POC. Lets keep this in the realms of d and d please. Ginger snaps and all;)

[Boink]

For the record (and for legal reasons going to be cagey here):

The Guildemaster's Guide to Ravnica is not WotC core material, and is not part of the Sword Coast / Forgotten Realms license Larian purchased off Wotc / Hasbro.

The person who wrote it is... problematically Libertarian[1].

Goblins are canonically: Lifespan 62–80 years, which is identical to humans in various time periods.

The person claiming Goblins mature that fast is... a bit strange.

The goblins in said set piece are obviously 12+.

~

You're killing goblin teenagers.

I mean, it's still wrong, but that's part of games / art: thinking beyond the knee-jerk stuff and thinking: "Gee wizzz..... do we fund that exact age with weapons / kill them with impunity"


Literally.


Go spam the USA MIL ESPORTS channel with "warcrimes for loot crates" and so on.



[1] This means he likes "swimming" in sPEEDOES, he loves "swimming" in tight lyrca SpeedoES. Get it?

[Dragon Master]

1: What does it matter if someone in Libertarian, Republican or Democrat? All that matters is that it’s D&D 5E material.

2: It’s still official D&D 5E as a source book for DM’s to use at their discretion. If they use it, then that’s what a goblins age range is for their game.

3: Does it matter that much if the goblins are 12+ or 5+?

[Destroying Angel]

In a constitutional republic, all goblins must die. What are we in d&D 5e?

[Boink]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

1: What does it matter if someone in Libertarian, Republican or Democrat? All that matters is that it’s D&D 5E material.

2: It’s still official D&D 5E as a source book for DM’s to use at their discretion. If they use it, then that’s what a goblins age range is for their game.

3: Does it matter that much if the goblins are 12+ or 5+?

1. It matters because a (sadly large) amount of USA D&D players were... "Ethically challenged"

2. It's not - see, you *still* can't understand that D&D BEYOND license and Sword Coast / Forgotten Realm license are different

3. Yeah, it does. Go look up PEGI ratings, as previously mentioned, you are reaaaaaly proving to the world your IQ.

~

Yeah, all 3 matter.

You're not ganking goblin children in their creches, you're ganking goblin teenagers armed with bows who join in the fight.


Go look up PEGI ratings and learn a few things.

[GrimAtrament]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Hararddex:

he asked if it was okay to kill goblin children not which goblin children
how is that any diffrent then humans?

should we kill ourselves because a few humans are POS?

One, that question has nothing to do with goblins, and two, you are conflating real world issues and morality with a fictional setting where morality is not subjective at all, and is a force of nature as powerful as gravity itself.

I do find it telling that you see people of color as the equivalent of goblins.

idk how you jumpped to that conclusion, but thats the furest thing i was thinking of. humans are the only saipent being on the planet so what else am i suppose to compare goblins to other then humans? even mindflayers are based off humanity.

all fictional saipent creatures elves, dwarves, aliens in sifi like mass effect are based off humanity.

well as far as goblin folklore goes goblins weren't actually considered all that evil till christianity came along.

many old folktales from celtic mythos and later in shaklspearen times they were helpful spirits.
(for example robin goodfellow is a hob goblin, and also the benevolent goblin form the tale the benevolent goblin.)

also even in dnd lore you would be mistaken because according to a recent statment WoTC made the goblin race are not evil alligned and you can play a good golbin.

so i'ts not a force of nature in universe now is it?


so again i ask you would you damn all of humans because there are some bad ones.


also one of the angels became a devil when they went on a mad rampage of slaughtering demons and devils and became evil. (i am talking about Zariel fyi.) this is a lore fact. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zariel#History

so yes slaughtering somthing for no other reason then "it's evil." so even lore dissagrees with you on how the alginment works

is in fact an evil act according to dnd

Oprindeligt skrevet af Dragon Master:

2: It’s still official D&D 5E

it's no longer offical WoTC already made a statment that this would change in there new upcoming source books.

[Cookie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQzo9WDF0_o

my answer

[Big Moustache]

Children are Children, no matter their race.

Adult lions will kill you without hesitation, their cubs are cute, furry and innocent

[GrimAtrament]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Cookie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQzo9WDF0_o

my answer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5je4rz1HGVI just sayin

as much people try to praise goblin slayer it didn't really have the best indepth lore of actual goblins.

[GrimAtrament]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Diedkid:

Yes, alignment in dnd is not subjective, but fealty to a god and their opinion on the matter isn't what determines alignments, its the universe itself that determines it based on a combination of an individual's intentions and actions. If they try to follow the law or a strict code of ethics, they're a lawful character. If they go against the law or any notion of ethical rules, their a chaotic character. If they try to solve things in the best out come for everyone, including their enemies if possible,they're a good character. If they try to solve things in the best outcome for themselves at the cost of others, they're an evil character. If they fall somewhere in between or are generally indifferent to either side, they are a neutral character.

i mean idk why you would need to spell it out to them. when we have an in canon example of a lawful good character becoming lawful evil because they thought it was okay to kill all "evil." for no other reason then that they were "evil."

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zariel#History

so not sure if they are really that knwolegeable about dnd lore even.