Mephistopheles vs Asmodeus Tieflings

[Knightmage Bael]

So far exactly the same, there's nothing differentiating them other than skin color. Which is fine.

Though, Zariel gets +1 STR, +2 CHA, the other two get +1 INT, +2 CHA, Maybe change Mephistopheles Tieflings should have +1 dex, +2 CHA or something instead?

Paladins will use CHA+STR
Bards use CHA
Clerics use WIS
Sorcerer use CHA

I don't think Paladins or Clerics would work well story wise haha, but maybe instead of the +1 INT , one of the two remaining tiefling subraces should use DEX or CON. At least for the sake of increased purpose other than saying "I want a purple Tiefling".

I actually think Sorcerer could go really well. CON + CHA sounds like a lot of fun.

[jffrspuk]

It's the spells in the infernal legacy that are the difference maker.

Mephistopheles get Mage Hand straight away, then 2nd Level Burning hands at Level 3 and if we get to 5th level - Flame Blade.

Asmodeus gets Thaumaturgy, Hellish Rebuke and Darkness

[Knightmage Bael]

Originally posted by jffrspuk:

It's the spells in the infernal legacy that are the difference maker.

Mephistopheles get Mage Hand straight away, then 2nd Level Burning hands at Level 3 and if we get to 5th level - Flame Blade.

Asmodeus gets Thaumaturgy, Hellish Rebuke and Darkness

Ah interesting.

As of now, with Charisma as a main stat, the only early access class they're any good at really is Warlock, which, as a class, I feel is utterly useless.

Not tanky enough enough to sustain damage on the frontline, not enough to hang back and be the token wizard either. Is there even a good way to USE the warlock? I find it to be a neat idea, but just doesn't have an ability kit to help it be useful in either roles.

Armor of Agathys is also utterly useless. +5 HP, 5 cold damage to any creature that hits you. Shouldn't it increase your AC instead? You're quite squishy. If you get hit, the 5 HP damage dealt to them isn't going to be worth the effort - unless you give warlocks the ability to leech life from their opponent when they attack somehow.

(trying to work this out. level 1 I took true strike blade ward, and then hex and arms of hadar)

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

Originally posted by jffrspuk:

It's the spells in the infernal legacy that are the difference maker.

Mephistopheles get Mage Hand straight away, then 2nd Level Burning hands at Level 3 and if we get to 5th level - Flame Blade.

Asmodeus gets Thaumaturgy, Hellish Rebuke and Darkness

Ah interesting.

As of now, with Charisma as a main stat, the only early access class they're any good at really is Warlock, which, as a class, I feel is utterly useless.

Not tanky enough enough to sustain damage on the frontline, not enough to hang back and be the token wizard either. Is there even a good way to USE the warlock? I find it to be a neat idea, but just doesn't have an ability kit to help it be useful in either roles.

Armor of Agathys is also utterly useless. +5 HP, 5 cold damage to any creature that hits you. Shouldn't it increase your AC instead? You're quite squishy. If you get hit, the 5 HP damage dealt to them isn't going to be worth the effort - unless you give warlocks the ability to leech life from their opponent when they attack somehow.

They're one of the stronger classes.

A warlock is basically a magic archer at these low levels. Hex + eldritch blast + agonizing blast is really solid as a damage source. Give it the ability to shove as well and you can use them to reposition enemies, keep them at range, knock people off cliffs, all at long range.

Fiend is the only one with an ability right now, but that ability does let you leech life from enemies you kill as temporary HP. Making them quite tanky as well in some situations. And hellish rebuke gives you a solid retaliation to finish off enemies who do hit you if you pre-cast it or find a turn you would be better off not doing anything.

And you can hex + scorching ray if I remember right.

And lastly, in EA if you want a "face" character they're really the best option.

Not sure why you think the class is weak. Obviously the standard D&D power curve applies. Low levels favor melee, high levels favor full casters. But Warlocks at low levels are pretty solid all the same.

Now, future state, their real value is in multiclassing. Sorlocks are common for a reason.

[Knightmage Bael]

I reallocated my spread to have 15 dex, 12 con and int, and then 17 charisma.

I took true strike and blade ward cantrips, and hex and arms of hadar.

I find it weak because I take too much damage and get annihilated. All the abilities seem to favor close range, so that's where I go. You say it can be an archer though? How would that work? Wouldn't it just be better to pick a ranger class?

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

I reallocated my spread to have 15 dex, 12 con and int, and then 17 charisma.

I took true strike and blade ward cantrips, and hex and arms of hadar.

I find it weak because I take too much damage and get annihilated. All the abilities seem to favor close range, so that's where I go. You say it can be an archer though? How would that work? Wouldn't it just be better to pick a ranger class?

Oh. Well you're playing it wrong then. That's why it feels weak.

My suggestion:

Half Wood elf

16 cha, not 17. And 16 con and dex also. Remaining points in strength

Urchin background

Warlock - The Fiend

Take eldritch blast (your primary attack), hex, and hellish rebuke for sure. Pick your other cantrip as you like. None will be super relevant now, but if the level cap goes up True Strike can do some moving for you.

Enter combat: Use your bonus action to hex your target. Cast eldritch blast on it after that. End turn. When that enemy dies you get a new spell in your bar to reapply hex for free, do that and blast more.

At level 2 you take agonizing blast and repelling blast. This makes eldritch blast push enemies and do more damage.

Level 3 nets you pact of the chain. Summon an invisible imp. It's pretty strong and can reapply invisibility and fly in combat as much as it wants (takes actions though). So... tons of cheesy stuff you can do.

Level 4, +2 to CHA ability increase

Done.

[Knightmage Bael]

I want to play a Tiefling though.

It feels like Tieflings aren't good at *anything* ;~; (maybe switch the stats around to favor wisdom/int/dex over charisma?)

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

I want to play a Tiefling though.

It feels like Tieflings aren't good at *anything* ;~; (maybe switch the stats around to favor wisdom/int/dex over charisma?)

Tieflings work fine for warlock too. Take the same build I just gave you, swap in tiefling, and maybe you need to lower dex and con a bit but you gain fire resist (very common damage source).

Your real problem is you were playing warlock totally wrong. If you didn't take eldritch blast you totally messed up warlock. You should be casting that cantrip basically every turn.

There are types of warlocks not in the game that focus on melee. But they aren't in the game.

[Knightmage Bael]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

I want to play a Tiefling though.

It feels like Tieflings aren't good at *anything* ;~; (maybe switch the stats around to favor wisdom/int/dex over charisma?)

Tieflings work fine for warlock too. Take the same build I just gave you, swap in tiefling, and maybe you need to lower dex and con a bit but you gain fire resist (very common damage source).

Your real problem is you were playing warlock totally wrong. If you didn't take eldritch blast you totally messed up warlock. You should be casting that cantrip basically every turn.

There are types of warlocks not in the game that focus on melee. But they aren't in the game.

It really feels like that's the direction it wants me to go though. 90% of the cantrips and spells available focus on close combat damage. Conversely, is poison spray viable? I see that offered.

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

Tieflings work fine for warlock too. Take the same build I just gave you, swap in tiefling, and maybe you need to lower dex and con a bit but you gain fire resist (very common damage source).

Your real problem is you were playing warlock totally wrong. If you didn't take eldritch blast you totally messed up warlock. You should be casting that cantrip basically every turn.

There are types of warlocks not in the game that focus on melee. But they aren't in the game.

It really feels like that's the direction it wants me to go though. 90% of the cantrips and spells available focus on close combat damage. Conversely, is poison spray viable? I see that offered.

You don't seem to be understanding this:

Eldritch blast is THE point of Warlock. Poison spray will NOT work.

At least every type in the early access requires eldritch blast. 100%. No exceptions. If your warlock does not take it you are gimping your warlock to the point of it being utterly useless. Because you made a bad choice, not because the class is bad. It's actually so important I think they should put a warning in on the class if you don't take it saying "Hey, you might be screwing this up"

For an analogy: Imagine Larian implemented a race that had a racial feature that made them incapable of casting spells at all. And then you chose that race and made a Wizard.

That is what you are doing.

Eldritch blast + hex + (in level 2) agonizing blast + repelling blast. Do it.

[Tenebrae]

I just wish that they had some different physical traits to represent the different bloodlines. You have demons and devils, all of which look so different from species to species, and then Tieflings...which were so drastically homogenized.

They should have the most drastic visual range amongst all the races.

[Knightmage Bael]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

It really feels like that's the direction it wants me to go though. 90% of the cantrips and spells available focus on close combat damage. Conversely, is poison spray viable? I see that offered.

You don't seem to be understanding this:

Eldritch blast is THE point of Warlock. Poison spray will NOT work.

At least every type in the early access requires eldritch blast. 100%. No exceptions. If your warlock does not take it you are gimping your warlock to the point of it being utterly useless. Because you made a bad choice, not because the class is bad. It's actually so important I think they should put a warning in on the class if you don't take it saying "Hey, you might be screwing this up"

For an analogy: Imagine Larian implemented a race that had a racial feature that made them incapable of casting spells at all. And then you chose that race and made a Wizard.

That is what you are doing.

Eldritch blast + hex + (in level 2) agonizing blast + repelling blast. Do it.

That feels...restrictive.

If there's no viable different choices available, then the class feels incredibly stiff. You have to do it the same exact way every single time or else it just doesn't work.

It sounds like bad class design. Apparently that's the way to go, you're saying its very powerful in that set up, but its rigid since that's the only viable way to build a warlock ? :P

Maybe a class should have a core ability it comes with, just like how a race has an ability it comes with?

[Hobocop]

Right now it is, because we don't have the rest of the options from the PHB.

[Draconiya]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

You don't seem to be understanding this:

Eldritch blast is THE point of Warlock. Poison spray will NOT work.

At least every type in the early access requires eldritch blast. 100%. No exceptions. If your warlock does not take it you are gimping your warlock to the point of it being utterly useless. Because you made a bad choice, not because the class is bad. It's actually so important I think they should put a warning in on the class if you don't take it saying "Hey, you might be screwing this up"

For an analogy: Imagine Larian implemented a race that had a racial feature that made them incapable of casting spells at all. And then you chose that race and made a Wizard.

That is what you are doing.

Eldritch blast + hex + (in level 2) agonizing blast + repelling blast. Do it.

That feels...restrictive.

If there's no viable different choices available, then the class feels incredibly stiff. You have to do it the same exact way every single time or else it just doesn't work.

It sounds like bad class design. Apparently that's the way to go, you're saying its very powerful in that set up, but its rigid since that's the only viable way to build a warlock ? :P

Would you say that it's restrictive that you should take a ranged weapon as a ranger? Or that the wizard being designed to take a ranged damaging cantrip is bad design? No, right?
Then why are you arguing that taking your bread and butter offensive cantrip as a warlock is restrictive?
They will implement Pact of the Blade later; which can create better melee warlocks, but even those want Eldritch Blast for ranged situations.
You can customize warlocks through your choice of subclass, spells, and especially Invocations; those make them one of the most customizable classes out there.
Eldritch Blast is what warlocks do when they have no spell slots left. Not taking that is like refusing to take a weapon as a fighter. It really should be a class feature rather than eating up a cantrip slot in 5e D&D itself; but that's a different discussion.

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

You don't seem to be understanding this:

Eldritch blast is THE point of Warlock. Poison spray will NOT work.

At least every type in the early access requires eldritch blast. 100%. No exceptions. If your warlock does not take it you are gimping your warlock to the point of it being utterly useless. Because you made a bad choice, not because the class is bad. It's actually so important I think they should put a warning in on the class if you don't take it saying "Hey, you might be screwing this up"

For an analogy: Imagine Larian implemented a race that had a racial feature that made them incapable of casting spells at all. And then you chose that race and made a Wizard.

That is what you are doing.

Eldritch blast + hex + (in level 2) agonizing blast + repelling blast. Do it.

That feels...restrictive.

If there's no viable different choices available, then the class feels incredibly stiff. You have to do it the same exact way every single time or else it just doesn't work.

It sounds like bad class design. Apparently that's the way to go, you're saying its very powerful in that set up, but its rigid since that's the only viable way to build a warlock ? :P

Maybe a class should have a core ability it comes with, just like how a race has an ability it comes with?

It is early access and only that one type of warlock has been implemented. There are others, but they aren't in game yet. So yeah, it's restrictive right now. If they implement hexblades and some of the other pact boons you might see some very different warlocks showing up. Right now they are a magical archer. You asked how to build it. That's how.

Don't know what to tell you. *shrugs* Tieflings will have more use when Sorc shows up. But they make perfectly respectable wizards as well if you wanted some social skills.

[zenebatos1]

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

I reallocated my spread to have 15 dex, 12 con and int, and then 17 charisma.

I took true strike and blade ward cantrips, and hex and arms of hadar.

Why do you pick the 2 most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ useless cantrips of 5E?...

With all the Nice cantrips thats around, you pikc the 2 most useless pieces of ♥♥♥♥ cantrips, no wonder you're getting destroyed...

Originally posted by Archmage_Bael:

I want to play a Tiefling though.

It feels like Tieflings aren't good at *anything* ;~; (maybe switch the stats around to favor wisdom/int/dex over charisma?)

...OMG...