Str vs Dex, what don't I understand?

[Locklave]

Mechanically it seems like dex is just better overall in combat.

Str (relies on armor for AC, medium/heavy)
Hit/damage/carry weight

Dex (relies on dex for AC and light/medium armor)
Hit/damage (finesse* weapons only) AC

Carry weight is honestly great, but dex builds mean lighter armor and weapons. Also access to the camp storage means inventory space isn't a big deal.

Now I know Str weapons do more damage but the difference vs AC from dex increase seems underwhelming.

Is there more to this then I know or am I forgetting to take something into account? Aside from lifting and moving items in the world.

*credit to Auburn2 on that correction

[Seivar24]

Don't forget initiative, Dexterity represents your reflexes which dictate your ability to react. This is also presented in initiative where Dex characters shine since they get to go first 80% of the time.

[Diteron]

Seivar24 の投稿を引用：

Don't forget initiative, Dexterity represents your reflexes which dictate your ability to react. This is also presented in initiative where Dex characters shine since they get to go first 80% of the time.

Not the way I roll.

[Azell]

Dex vs Str in terms of AC there really isn't a difference besides Dex not having disadvantage on stealth checks because you have Heavy armor making your AC 15 and maybe alowing +1 Dex or you have light armor making your AC 12 but alowing +4 Dex they are both equaling 16 AC regardless,

Now in this game having higher strength means you can pick things up you otherwise couldn't as well as move or throw them further and also jump further which is quite handy to get around But,

Strength saving throws are hardly ever used compared to a Dexterity Saving throw just look at most spells,

Now if we are talking Pure damage the Strength fighter with the Two-Weapon Fighting class ability and the Dual wielder Feat at lvl 4 you can use any one handed weapon instead of just Light class weapons to fight with so you can use for example 2 1d10 maces instead of 2 1d8 rapiers so your damage is going to be slightly higher.

[Elysion]

The way i look at rpgs, is that you want to have abilities to do things. Its a good idea to have someone strong on case you need to make a strength check. The question of STR based combat is not really 'is it better', but 'how do you do it well?'. It might well be that overall a dex fighter is a little better at fighting than a strength fighter, but hes not as good as pushing a heavy object out of the way. Hes also going to be competing with the other dex player for top gear, and leaving the nice magic greatsword unused by the party.

Its best to make well rounded parties.

[Arlen]

Mosey の投稿を引用：

Joe Chip の投稿を引用：

billybobtexan1000 の投稿を引用：

Rangers are like paladins, thier multi attack caps at 2.

If only they took horde breaker that lets them attack 3 times a round if dual-wielding, assuming two of the targets are close together which they just about always are.

Yes, A ranger has to rely on Hordebreaker to get that third attack, there is no diversity in the build. A fighter, be it a champion, Battlemaster, EK - gets that 3rd attack without tailoring the build to get it. And even then, at higher levels, Fighters get 4 attacks per round, and double action surge. Every Ranger is going to have hordebreaker, its the defining aspect of the build, it is also BORING, as again, everything about the class revolves around Hordebreaker. I give some credit to larian, at least the Ranger animal companion actually is useful.

[MJ]

Diteron の投稿を引用：

I don't understand the hate for the Great Weapon Master feat. You should only be using the -5 attack when you're facing something that's easy to hit and has high hp.... like most large or bigger monsters, or when you have advantage (the enemy is prone/asleep, etc.)

Whenever you crit or kill something, you get another attack as a bonus action, regardless if you used the -5 attack.

This is in my opinion one of the best combat feats in 5th edition, second only to sharpshooter.

Melee dex builds are only good in BG3 right now due to bugs. Off-hand attacks without a feat aren't supposed to add your dex to the damage. The second bonus action from Thief subclass shouldn't be able to be used for an attack, and further more even the first bonus action shouldn't be able to make an attack unless you used your action to attack.

Its a philosophy mostly and I agree with most people. The problem is you dont need damage gainst trash enemies. They are not a threat to begin with.

The problem is when you really need extra damage it is against harder enemies who are incidentally also hard to hit and this penalty can be crippling. Say your chance to hit is 55% against a enemy that debuffed you and has a high AC. -5 thus takes you to 50% and becomes a 10% penalty. Against even harder to hit stuff that penalty goes up. Obviously this also doesnt scale well over time unless you can multiply that bonus damage with crits. Without a high crit rate, this 10 damage for 5% chance becomes pretty bad later on. But it might be ok early game.

Again just a flavor. Some people prefer more certainty to hit than damage.

As for Dex being bugged, thats really not an issue. Dex was better even before 5e and with Rogue->Thief instead of fighter the difference is just gargantuan. Backstabs are just too good unless youre in a campaign with a lot of backstab immune enemies and when its harder to backstab. Dex is better. It always has been in DnD.

[jonnin]

After reading this yesterday I did a quick run to test a DW ranger str build, and it is quite good. It only really works AT level 4, so you suffer a bit at level 3 in that short gap from 3-4 in xp. But once you hit for... you have 16 str and a d8 weapon in each hand, 2d8+6 damage (vs 2d6+10+4 for GWF), each swing gets full attack bonus, after the first lands you get another d8 (ranger, colossus) and if marked (have to mark while chasing the guy down, though, cant double hit AND mark) additional damage die on top of that.
This is pretty high damage, without the miss chance of GWF, and its more consistent; even if you miss once you won't miss twice.

Apologies if someone already noted this, I did not backtrack to read it all again.
Fighter is feeling left way, way behind in this edition. The push off a cliff bowshot fighter is good cheeze in this game, but talking purely build capability, I am not impressed with it.

[wildnike]

Only *casuls* level Dex.

But yes, martial-wise, it's always been a bit of a scaling problem. Dex has a lot more tags on its superiority (like AC and initiative) compared to Strength usually just being flashy.

Of course things change as you go up in levels, but while we are in these low levels streams, eh, it's to be.

[HTakara]

Mosey の投稿を引用：

HTakara の投稿を引用：

STR is superior to DEX in low level adventuring. DEX based weapons are lower damage mods to begin with (with the exception of long bows), so in terms of damage you're looking at 1d4 to 1d6 +5 at level 4, if you have 20 dex. While STR weapons are 1d12 to 2d6 + 5 with 20 STR. light armor provides laughable AC, and the bonus AC you get is laughable. More times than not you're dead within 2 hits.

Lets see, 2D8+6 (8-22) versus 2D6+5 (7-17). Rapier is one of the best DEX swords, not sure why you'd ignore it.

Versus 1D12+5 (6-17 / 11-17), or 2D6+5 (7-17 / 11-17) on STR.

Or you could dual wield sickles and get 4D4+5 (9-21) or 4D4+6 (10-22).

Honestly can't remember if the sickles are STR, DEX, or either. Doesn't really matter, since it's the same as rapier with a slightly higher min damage.

you're completely high, Rapiers are 1d8 and sickles are 1d4

the strongest STR base weapon is the sword of justice a 2d6+1 with shield of Faith. The strongest rapier is a rapier+1 1d8+1. And the strongest sickle+1 is a 1d4+1.

[Auburn2]

Mosey の投稿を引用：

Great weapons do more damage (D12, 2D6) compared to light weapons (D6, D8) but since you can dual wield light weapons great weapons fall behind right off the bat. (2D6, 2D8)

They do not fall behind right off the bat because there are no d8 finesse weapons that can be dual wielded without a feat and dual wielding does not give a damage bonus on the offhand without a fighiting style.

So in DPR it is 2d6+strength for a greatsword or 1d6+dexterity+1d6 offhand for 2xshort swords. So the damage is identical dual wielding vs swinging a greatsword or maul. However the person dual wielding uses up his bonus action, so while it is the same damage it is worse in terms of action economy.

A warrior type can take a fighting style to get the damage bonus with the offhand, which will boost it beyond what one will do with a single weapon, but only by a few points and again at the cost of a bonus action.

In 5E Great Weapon Master is the most powerful feet in the game. the +10 damage is more essentially double damage. They can also choose when to use it based on how difficult it will be to hit the enemy.

Finally even if you are going to dual wield the strength-based character is not behind. A 16S/8D fighter with 2 short swords does the same damage as an 8S/16D fighter with 2 short swords. The stronger character also jumps further and is better at shoving (proficiencies notwitstanding). The dex-based character is better at using missile weapons that are not thrown, is better at initiative and is better at sneaking, but gives up a point or more in AC if he wants to sneak without disadvantage.

[Auburn2]

Mosey の投稿を引用：

Lets see, 2D8+6 (8-22) versus 2D6+5 (7-17). Rapier is one of the best DEX swords, not sure why you'd ignore it..

Because a Rapier is not light and can not be dual wielded. Both weapons have to be light to be dual wielded.

[HTakara]

Also Finesse weapons are the only melee weapons that uses DEX mods, which also greatly limits which weapons you can dual wield effectively as a dex build. I'd argue STR build warrors dual wield better. As they get dual wield fighting style, And can equip any light non-finesse weapons such as short swords in their off-hand, and a martial weapon in their main hand.

[Auburn2]

Seivar24 の投稿を引用：

Don't forget initiative, Dexterity represents your reflexes which dictate your ability to react. This is also presented in initiative where Dex characters shine since they get to go first 80% of the time.

80% is way, way off.

The actual percentage depends on how many people are fighting and what their bonus is. If you have a 16 dexterity and there are 4 of you in your party and you are fighting 6 goblins (14 dexterity), you will should first about 11% of the time .... assuming no one in your party has an equal or higher dexterity than you do.

[ayrtep]

Personally I think fighter's should start with Chain Mail rather than Scale mail to encourage buildings str fighters.

[Arlen]

pandariuskairos の投稿を引用：

HTakara の投稿を引用：

Also Finesse weapons are the only melee weapons that uses DEX mods, which also greatly limits which weapons you can dual wield effectively as a dex build. I'd argue STR build warrors dual wield better. As they get dual wield fighting style, And can equip any light non-finesse weapons such as short swords in their off-hand, and a martial weapon in their main hand.

Are there any weapons besides short swords you can dual wield with DEX?

hand axes, sickles, daggers, any light weapon that has finesse can be dual weilded.