Kagha's Health

[Nameless Keeper]

How does a level 4 druid with Constitution 14 has 57 health? If she had the 'tough' feat, she would have around 39 health.

[Planeforger]

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

Actually makes more sense for a powerful druid to be called 'arch-druid' anyways. I'd take it harder with a possible build any day.

You'd like them to introduce an unbeatable fight, rather than an encounter that's tailored to be challenging for your party level?

I think you said it best:

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

That is, ultimately, just bad design.

[Arlen]

Origineel geplaatst door Pumis:

Origineel geplaatst door billybobtexan1000:

For all intents and purposes, she is the archdruid, Halsin left HER in charge while he went adventuring, and his whereabouts were not known, nor if he was even alive. So yeah, I expect the leader, and the next in line, to be more powerful then the other druids.

Silly to expect her to be as powerful as real arch-druid. She is merely replacement. IF she was as powerful then people would refer her as cure. She just gained title of arch-druid without the powers and knowledge to be one.

so she is a senior in college, a teachers assistant, with more knowledge and able to teach other students - thus more powerful then the average student. I do not expect her to be as powerful as an archdruid, But I absolutely expect her to be more powerful then the average druid. She is still in a position of leadership, and chosen because she is more then an average druid.

[Boink]

Origineel geplaatst door Pumis:

Origineel geplaatst door billybobtexan1000:

so she is a senior in college, a teachers assistant, with more knowledge and able to teach other students - thus more powerful then the average student. I do not expect her to be as powerful as an archdruid, But I absolutely expect her to be more powerful then the average druid. She is still in a position of leadership, and chosen because she is more then an average druid.

Well more powerful than average druid in her coven. But yeas position of leadership. My point was that she doesn't deserve the stats of an arch-druid just because she did replace previous leader who has gone missing.

If you discover the letter hidden in the bog mephit area, it's pretty clear that she / her backers (shadow druids) planned the entire thing with the intent to seal the Druid's Circle / purge the tieflings from the area.

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door billybobtexan1000:

Origineel geplaatst door Pumis:

Silly to expect her to be as powerful as real arch-druid. She is merely replacement. IF she was as powerful then people would refer her as cure. She just gained title of arch-druid without the powers and knowledge to be one.

so she is a senior in college, a teachers assistant, with more knowledge and able to teach other students - thus more powerful then the average student. I do not expect her to be as powerful as an archdruid, But I absolutely expect her to be more powerful then the average druid. She is still in a position of leadership, and chosen because she is more then an average druid.

If she was more powerful than the average druid, she would not be level 4. If she has buffed stats to reach a degree of difficulty that is not reachable by average character building applied to player characters, then either player characters should be applied the same leniency or dhe should be of a level that is expected to meet the desired degree of difficulty. If it doesn't make same in the way of character building it is bad character design, ultimately because of two things: it is an unreachable milestone, meaning it locks the player behind an unreachable goal ("my character will NEVER be as strong as her; in any one equivalent level she will have more health than my character, even if I build it to have as much health possible") and that is atypical of western RPGs, especially DnD, in which you are encouraged to approach the world on fair character building, which usually means facing NPCs that are stronger than you using the same rules applied to your character (and that means a higher level character most of the time), being such mechanics more typical of JRPGs in which there is usually no clear ruleset on character building; and because it subverts a reality of character building that doesn't make sense in a consistency level, meaning it applies the rules of the world differently to each creature; it is actually fine to explain apparent inconsistency, for instance, with homebrew feats to explain an event (such as the 'Veteran' feat from KOTOR 2, which would depict previous experience and provide a reward based on a background, tough it could adimmitedly do better), but it usually must be applied to both NPCs AND player characters, otherwise there is no fair character building, and therefore it IS bad character design.

P.S.: it does not mean both must be as powrful as each oth, but the player must have the opportunity to be as powerful as a NPC that is the same level as him.

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Pumis:

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

If she was more powerful than the average druid, she would not be level 4. If she has buffed stats to reach a degree of difficulty that is not reachable by average character building applied to player characters, then either player characters should be applied the same leniency or dhe should be of a level that is expected to meet the desired degree of difficulty. If it doesn't make same in the way of character building it is bad character design, ultimately because of two things: it is an unreachable milestone, meaning it locks the player behind an unreachable goal ("my character will NEVER be as strong as her; in any one equivalent level she will have more health than my character, even if I build it to have as much health possible") and that is atypical of western RPGs, especially DnD, in which you are encouraged to approach the world on fair character building, which usually means facing NPCs that are stronger than you using the same rules applied to your character (and that means a higher level character most of the time), being such mechanics more typical of JRPGs in which there is usually no clear ruleset on character building; and because it subverts a reality of character building that doesn't make sense in a consistency level, meaning it applies the rules of the world differently to each creature; it is actually fine to explain apparent inconsistency, for instance, with homebrew feats to explain an event (such as the 'Veteran' feat from KOTOR 2, which would depict previous experience and provide a reward based on a background, tough it could adimmitedly do better), but it usually must be applied to both NPCs AND player characters, otherwise there is no fair character building, and therefore it IS bad character design.

P.S.: it does not mean both must be as powrful as each oth, but the player must have the opportunity to be as powerful as a NPC that is the same level as him.

She is level 5 unless I remember wrong. Also the level does not reflect player character level. Take it as a CR rating. You're suppose to only deal with her when you are same "level" as her.

The funny thing is, you complain about her health "buff" while suggest to increase her level to the point that it would be impossible for a player to kill her without abusing exploits.
You clearly have no clue how game design works.

The HP she has is not unreachable as proven by other people. There is no unreachable goal. Your character is better than her if you actually knew how to min max, but as proven through your DnD character... You are terrible at character creation.

Fun fact... You don't find a single game that provides what you are complaining about.

EDIT to make point clear to you. Owlbear has a levels. Can you tell his class?

The owlbear has an encounter level, which depicts 2-3 times his described level. A druid has no encounter level. And, finally, if you are facing a level 8 character with a level 4 character you have to use exploits to win, because a level 8 character should not lose to a level 4 character. And, if you could, explain to me how I can reach 57 health with 14 Con without the 'Tough' feat at level 4, as a player character.

[Mr. Darcion]

Origineel geplaatst door pandariuskairos:

Origineel geplaatst door Hobocop:

They don't. 'Average' goblins in the game right now have 10-15-ish HP.

Actually, it's around 18-22.


Goblins in D&D have an average of 7 hp.

I just finished the Goblin Camp yesterday and there were variations. Novice goblins had around 15 hp and Boss goblins had over 30 hp. Also some off the gobos had AC over 17... Which is pretty ridiculous, considering that the main boss had HP over 50 and AC of 11.

Still I had a fun experience by summoning a "special cavalry" to the fight with a certain horn. They pummeled everything to the ground and when they were enough damaged I executed the "special cavalry" for some extra lootz. :D

[Marcos_DS]

Origineel geplaatst door Hobocop:

NPCs and monsters don't need to follow the same stat generation rules as PCs. Literally how it is in the DMG.

This.

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Marcos_DS:

Origineel geplaatst door Hobocop:

NPCs and monsters don't need to follow the same stat generation rules as PCs. Literally how it is in the DMG.

This.

STILL bad character design. * Thumbs up sign *

[Marcos_DS]

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

Origineel geplaatst door Marcos_DS:

This.

STILL bad character design. * Thumbs up sign *

Why though? She is not a player character, the DM can give her any hp he wants. A ingame reason for really exceptional deviations (more than double regular hp) would be nice, but it doesn't have to be anything thats available to the players.

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Marcos_DS:

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

STILL bad character design. * Thumbs up sign *

Why though? She is not a player character, the DM can give her any hp he wants. A ingame reason for really exceptional deviations (more than double regular hp) would be nice, but it doesn't have to be anything thats available to the players.

"DM does whatever he wants" does not make a bad character design good character design. * Thumbs up sign *

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Pumis:

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

The owlbear has an encounter level, which depicts 2-3 times his described level. A druid has no encounter level. And, finally, if you are facing a level 8 character with a level 4 character you have to use exploits to win, because a level 8 character should not lose to a level 4 character. And, if you could, explain to me how I can reach 57 health with 14 Con without the 'Tough' feat at level 4, as a player character.

You can never class into Owlbear, thus artificial difficulty and game is a hoax!11oneoen!
Encounter levels applies to humanoids as well. You have no case to prove that druid has no encounter level.

"if you are facing a level 8 character with a level 4 character you have to use exploits to win, because a level 8 character should not lose to a level 4 character. "
Exploits are not intended design.

" And, if you could, explain to me how I can reach 57 health with 14 Con without the 'Tough' feat at level 4, as a player character."
This has been explained several times to you.

No, it has not been explained. She'd have to have 31 health by herself and +26 health through spells, which would be "perfectly blanced" with cannot be achieved by 'Aid' with a 5th level slot (by 1 [one] point, which you might say is nitpicking). Such means cannot be reached by the player character. Nor can such means be reached after her defeat.

[Nameless Keeper]

Owlbear is around level 7 (7 hit dice), with adapted 'magical beast' levels, which one might or might not remember from the 3rd edition. The health from 'non-classes' are applied using the medium valor per dice since level one (avarege/medium valor per level is [maximum value of the dice]/2 +1 | literal average/medium valor [mostly used to calculate damage] is [maximum value of the dice]/2 + 0,5, which is mostly used in the monster book to calculate monster health [ex.: gnoll, level 5 {5 hit dice} -> 5d8 -> 4,5 x 5 -> 22,5 -> 22 health); therefore, Owlbear (Con 17 [+3]) with seven levels equal +21, plus 7 hit dice, 7d10+21 (7 x 5,5 + 21 -> 59,5 -> 59 health).

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

Owlbear is around level 7 (7 hit dice), with adapted 'magical beast' levels, which one might or might not remember from the 3rd edition. The health from 'non-classes' are applied using the medium valor per dice since level one (avarege/medium valor per level is [maximum value of the dice]/2 +1 | literal average/medium valor [mostly used to calculate damage] is [maximum value of the dice]/2 + 0,5, which is mostly used in the monster book to calculate monster health [ex.: gnoll, level 5 {5 hit dice} -> 5d8 -> 4,5 x 5 -> 22,5 -> 22 health); therefore, Owlbear (Con 17 [+3]) with seven levels equal +21, plus 7 hit dice, 7d10+21 (7 x 5,5 + 21 -> 59,5 -> 59 health).

The main conclusion is that the adapted 'magical beast' 'non-class' does not reach +6 proficiency bonus at level 20.

[Marcos_DS]

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

Origineel geplaatst door Marcos_DS:

Why though? She is not a player character, the DM can give her any hp he wants. A ingame reason for really exceptional deviations (more than double regular hp) would be nice, but it doesn't have to be anything thats available to the players.

"DM does whatever he wants" does not make a bad character design good character design. * Thumbs up sign *

NPC stats have nothing to do with good or bad character design. Either its a interesting antagonist or character, or not. If some ruleslawyer comes along and insists the DM has to use player rules for creation (despite the rules explicitly saying the opposite) and keeps insisting, most DMs would kick him out. Same type of player that wants to do huge rules discussions in the middle of the game, so no loss.

[Nameless Keeper]

Origineel geplaatst door Marcos_DS:

Origineel geplaatst door Nameless Keeper:

"DM does whatever he wants" does not make a bad character design good character design. * Thumbs up sign *

NPC stats have nothing to do with good or bad character design. Either its a interesting antagonist or character, or not. If some ruleslawyer comes along and insists the DM has to use player rules for creation (despite the rules explicitly saying the opposite) and keeps insisting, most DMs would kick him out. Same type of player that wants to do huge rules discussions in the middle of the game, so no loss.

Usually the ones discussing and enforcing the rules on the tables I play are the DMs and I mostly agree with them, so no loss. * Thumbs up sign *