Dual Wield vs 2 Handed

[Lyntz_fr]

Tell me if i am missing something, but actually it looks like 2H outclass completly DW.

First problem is that the OffHand attack share the same cooldown with all free action, so DW lose some damages when 2H doesn't.

Second problem is that all reset action feat, like warrior Action Surge, only reset main hand.

Third problem is that the OffHand doesn't get another attack per round, so 2H late game win again.

Solutions :
Offhand attack must be a free attack that doesn't count like a free action, and be reset when you use a reset action feat.
Give OffHand another attack bonus per round at some lvl (for a total of 2 attacks per round max to the offhand).
All 2H should have 2m range when 1H have 1.5m range.

[Lyntz_fr]

I found another problem who give 2H far better than dual, actually there is no penality by switching items from the bag while you are in combat !
you can attack with your 2H as primary action, then switch from your bag 2 weapons, then you can attack with the offhand as bonus action, then switch with a shield to have max armor before end turn. You can swith everything, even armor...

even the auto attack on someone who leave your melee range only hit with your main hand and not the offhand... 2H win again...

[MyLittleJohny]

引用自 Lyntz_fr：

I found another problem who give 2H far better than dual, actually there is no penality by switching items from the bag while you are in combat !
you can attack with your 2H as primary action, then switch from your bag 2 weapons, then you can attack with the offhand as bonus action, then switch with a shield to have max armor before end turn. You can swith everything, even armor...

That is true

[Lyntz_fr]

i forgot to mention that the first Dual Feat is bugged, it doesn't apply the dex/str bonus to hit on the offhand

[TheBlueFox]

引用自 Lyntz_fr：

i forgot to mention that the first Dual Feat is bugged, it doesn't apply the dex/str bonus to hit on the offhand

It's not supposed to... It's supposed to add damage, I said it earlier it's programmed incorrectly to not add the stat to your attack but instead it adds it to the damage incorrectly.


But yes, 2handed combat is by its nature better than dual weilding. But here's the thing... Not everyone CAN use a 2 hander.

With the exception of the quarterstaff (And I think the spear, depending on if it's been errata'd), all 2 handed weapons are MARTIAL weapons.

So lets see who can use martial weapons?

Barbarian
Fighters
Paladins
Rangers


that's it. Lets see who CANNOT use martial weapons

Bard
cleric
druid
monk
rogue
sorcerer
warlock
wizard
(Artificer)


But guess what, all of these classes can dual wield!


Now, One of the other arguments is "But when you get multiple attacks, that completely overshadows dual wielding"

yes, attacking 4 times with a greatsword is better than attacking 5 times with a shortsword AND using up your bonus action. But Extra attack is granted by a feature. Lets see who can use it, and how good it is on those classes.


Barbarian - 2 attacks 3 with frenzy + bonus action
Bard (college of valor) - 2 attacks
Fighter - 4 attacks
Monk - 2 attacks + flurry of blows
Paladin - 2 attacks
Ranger - 2 attacks
Warlock (Pact of blade with Thirsting Blade) - 2 attacks

Lets see who DOESN'T Get Extra attack

Bard (College of lore)
Cleric - Sort of with War Domain? Bonus action to make another attack
Druid
Rogue
Sorc
Warlock (All others)
Wizard
(Artificer)

So, these classes need to dual wield if they want to get more damage from their weapons.

Here's one more tidbit. There are NO Dexterity based 2-handed weapons. (maybe the whip? I can't recall). So if you want to use Dexterity to increase your damage with a bow, you are restricted to using Dual Weapons. This means Rangers probably want to use a pair of scimitars or shortswords because of how good they can use a bow in tandem with it.

The breakdown is this. If you're strength based and you CAN use a 2 handed weapon, you should. (Unless you want to use a shield). at level 1-4 Dual Wield will outdamage a 2 handed weapon. But at level 5 and beyond a 2 handed weapon will outperform a Dual Wield set.

But only the fighter can attack more than 3 times naturally. All the other classes don't get more than a second attack with the Extra Attack feature

[Socipat]

引用自 Enigmatory：

TWF is great joke cause it's uses your bonus acton to do offhand attack. So it's only usable for classes that's have nothing to do with bonus action. It's usefull early but drop down on higher levels. TWF drops even more when "fighter type" classes getting extra attack.

Dude did you not read the explanations that was given RIGHT before you posted?

As for that explanation, thank you. I tend to play a TWF rogue and I like that it currently is a viable option.

[Archform]

magic missile + off-hand attack, attack 2 targets, dash + off-hand attack

[☸𝕵𝖔☸]

To consider., dex based builds can be good at shooting AND dual wielding though, not 2h builds.

[MyLittleJohny]

引用自 TheBlueFox：

It's not supposed to... It's supposed to add damage, I said it earlier it's programmed incorrectly to not add the stat to your attack but instead it adds it to the damage incorrectly.

What? O____O

引用自 TheBlueFox：

The breakdown is this. If you're strength based and you CAN use a 2 handed weapon, you should ... But at level 5 and beyond a 2 handed weapon will outperform a Dual Wield set.

This is not true. 2H outperforms DW only in certain situations by having GWM. Everywhere else, DW is better since it applies bonuses on both weapons and has much more attacks per turn. 2H has GWM to compensate for this, which gives them extra attack and extra damage, but this is only if you succeed against the -5 thac it gives you and if you crit/kill enemy. Meaning that this is useful against smaller low AC enemies, but not that much against higher AC enemies like bosses.

[Meowella]

Limiting the conversation to 2H vs DW is in itself a troublesome debate, because often you're debating between 2nd and 3rd place. I've seen a lot of arguments in the thread concerning this, so let's start by using 5th edition rules before moving to Larian's rules.

1. 2H or DW?
A greatsword, as the highest damage option, is doing 2d6 per swing (which averages 8.33 thanks to great weapon fighting style) plus 3 from strength for 11.33 damage with that one swing.
A pair of short swords will strike for 2d6+6, or 13 points of damage, from their two swings but use up the bonus action. A warlock or ranger can throw hex/mark out, but lacks the fighting style, meaning an output of 3d6+3 or 13.5 average.
Dueling, an option seemingly ignored so far, will mean a 1d8 weapon +2 dueling +3 ability or an average of 9.5... but allowing mark too so 13 average, is better than almost all of the options while allowing a shield on top. So in terms of better option - dueling wins.
2. Extra Attack.
The greatsword is looking to strike twice for 18.66 now (strength went up to 18, so 2d6+4 each swing, still with great weapon fighting style)
The pair of short swords is up to 3d6+12, or 22.5 average.
Greatsword with Hex for warlocks is up to 6d6+10 (improved pact weapon) or 31 damage on average.
Polearm Master, instead of +2 Str, would allow the fighter 2d10+1d4+9 (with fighting style d10 average is 6.1, d4 is 3) for 24.3. Q'staff version of this is 2d6+1d4+15, or 24.5 average.

From the numbers it should be easy to spot making full use of the bonus action leads to higher damage numbers - so whether you dual wield or swing a two hander, relying on your ACTION to deal damage is a massive failure, you need to ensure your bonus action is contributing to this as well.

Sticking with official rules, the only two handed finesse weapon requires a feat that provides +1 Str or Dex called Revenant Blade and is for Elves only, but turns the double-bladed scimitar into a finesse weapons to allow Rogues to sneak with it (also provides a bonus action attack!)
So at 5th level a Rogue with a revenant blade is capable of 3d6+3d4+4 (2d4 main hand swing, 1d4 bonus offhand, no ability modifier to offhand) or 22 damage.

Finally, none of this matters because Larian are not programming things effectively in terms of rules, so we should look at what they offer us:
1. You can cast a cantrip and bonus attack - This means free damage.
2. We don't know if it's bugged or if it's Larian changing the rules, but currently the ability modifier applies regardless. So Rogues should always dual wield as a Thief with two bonus actions gets the equivalent of extra attack while dual wielding!
3. Bows are best. With Archery style adding +2 to hit, provided you're using your bonus action to hunter's mark or whatever you're golden. But on top of this, you get to benefit from a shield all the time. So a Ranger will be wearing half plate plus using a shield while firing off hunter's mark then longbow to keep an AC of 19 while getting +9/1d10+1d6+4 (great crossbow +1). At 5th you'd switch to longbow, provided larian implement loading properly.

[Lyntz_fr]

Everyone even without mastery shield, can use it, you just have to equip it before ending the turn to have AC bonus.
There is no point to finish turn with 2 weapons equiped, even extra attacks like riposte etc only use main hand.

Even for rogues, dex warriors, or all other classes i would not recommand TWF Feats, i would prefer the Duel Feat that give +2 damages when only main hand equiped, because you can attack with your rapier only, then switch for 2 weapons and does some bonus attacks if you need.

Even a fighter who goes 2H can still add one bonus attack by switching, if he doesn't need to do any bonus action.

I reppeat but bonus actions are too important in BG3 so that mean you are wasting your 2 TWF Feats.

[TheBlueFox]

引用自 .Cute-Dei. Quake：

引用自 TheBlueFox：

It's not supposed to... It's supposed to add damage, I said it earlier it's programmed incorrectly to not add the stat to your attack but instead it adds it to the damage incorrectly.

What? O____O




This is in reference to a comment that Two weapon fighting style added "A bonus to the attack", that's not what it does, it adds your modifier to damage. And is currently coded incorrectly.

引用自 TheBlueFox：

The breakdown is this. If you're strength based and you CAN use a 2 handed weapon, you should ... But at level 5 and beyond a 2 handed weapon will outperform a Dual Wield set.

This is not true. 2H outperforms DW only in certain situations by having GWM. Everywhere else, DW is better since it applies bonuses on both weapons and has much more attacks per turn. 2H has GWM to compensate for this, which gives them extra attack and extra damage, but this is only if you succeed against the -5 thac it gives you and if you crit/kill enemy. Meaning that this is useful against smaller low AC enemies, but not that much against higher AC enemies like bosses.





This is also incorrect.

5th-level fighter with 18 Str/Dex deals 24.8 (4d6 rerolling 1s and 2s + 8) average damage with a greatsword and only 22.5 (3d6 + 12) damage with the shortswords. Even if the character in question somehow has 20 Str/Dex, the damage is 26.8 for the greatsword and 25.5 for shortswords, with two-handed weapon fighting still on top.

If you had the dual wielder feat, you could raise your average damage, but then to be fair we could also give the 2-hander great weapon fighter, meaning he'd be able to make a second attack when he kills something, still putting him out on top. AND in all other cases the 2-hander still gets to use his bonus action.


So, generally speaking, two-weapon fighting is better at lower levels, with ability scores over 20, or with dex-based characters. After 4th level, two-handed weapons outclass two-weapon fighting in most cases.

[TheBlueFox]

引用自 Lyntz_fr：

Even for rogues, dex warriors, or all other classes i would not recommand TWF Feats, i would prefer the Duel Feat that give +2 damages when only main hand equiped, because you can attack with your rapier only, then switch for 2 weapons and does some bonus attacks if you need.

Rogues cannot use the Duelist FIGHTING STYLE as it is an option only available to Fighters, Rangers, and Paladins.

Rogues do not have Shield Proficiency and it would then give them disadvantage on skill checks (Stealth, sleight of hand) and saving throws while equipped with it

Rogues MUST use two weapon fighting because it is their only option and there is no reason not to use it

Or a rogue can multiclass 2 levels of fighter later, who knows.

[Socipat]

引用自 Lyntz_fr：

Everyone even without mastery shield, can use it, you just have to equip it before ending the turn to have AC bonus.
There is no point to finish turn with 2 weapons equiped, even extra attacks like riposte etc only use main hand.

Even for rogues, dex warriors, or all other classes i would not recommand TWF Feats, i would prefer the Duel Feat that give +2 damages when only main hand equiped, because you can attack with your rapier only, then switch for 2 weapons and does some bonus attacks if you need.

Even a fighter who goes 2H can still add one bonus attack by switching, if he doesn't need to do any bonus action.

I reppeat but bonus actions are too important in BG3 so that mean you are wasting your 2 TWF Feats.

I smell an exploit that needs to be fixed before the game releases.

[TheBlueFox]

引用自 socipat：

引用自 Lyntz_fr：

Everyone even without mastery shield, can use it, you just have to equip it before ending the turn to have AC bonus.
There is no point to finish turn with 2 weapons equiped, even extra attacks like riposte etc only use main hand.

Even for rogues, dex warriors, or all other classes i would not recommand TWF Feats, i would prefer the Duel Feat that give +2 damages when only main hand equiped, because you can attack with your rapier only, then switch for 2 weapons and does some bonus attacks if you need.

Even a fighter who goes 2H can still add one bonus attack by switching, if he doesn't need to do any bonus action.

I reppeat but bonus actions are too important in BG3 so that mean you are wasting your 2 TWF Feats.

I smell an exploit that needs to be fixed before the game releases.

Exactly, It's not quite fair to make a case on the power of a particular weapon based on what you can do AFTER using it. Swapping weaponsets is technically limited to 1 hand per turn, unless you have the dual wielder feat, then you can swap 2 hands per turn

[TheBlueFox]

引用自 Phill：

Limiting the conversation to 2H vs DW is in itself a troublesome debate, because often you're debating between 2nd and 3rd place. I've seen a lot of arguments in the thread concerning this, so let's start by using 5th edition rules before moving to Larian's rules.

1. 2H or DW?
A greatsword, as the highest damage option, is doing 2d6 per swing (which averages 8.33 thanks to great weapon fighting style) plus 3 from strength for 11.33 damage with that one swing.
A pair of short swords will strike for 2d6+6, or 13 points of damage, from their two swings but use up the bonus action. A warlock or ranger can throw hex/mark out, but lacks the fighting style, meaning an output of 3d6+3 or 13.5 average.
Dueling, an option seemingly ignored so far, will mean a 1d8 weapon +2 dueling +3 ability or an average of 9.5... but allowing mark too so 13 average, is better than almost all of the options while allowing a shield on top. So in terms of better option - dueling wins.

You added hex/hunters mark to Duelist's damage calculations because you still get your bonus action.

2-handed weapon users also get their bonus action, why didn't you add it there?

Rangers can use 2-handed weapons and get the use of their hunters mark still.

Warlocks don't get a fighting style so warlocks can't use duelist.

This all goes to hell if we can add multiclasses in though.