Love the game, but damn does 5E suck

[EnStorEn]

3 or 3,5 is so much better it isn't even funny. So much flavour has gone out the window. I know 5e is basically WoC trying to cater to everyone, but it really feels like it is far too simplistic for its own good.

[psibot]

Understand very well 5e is my least favourite edition to but at least its DnD ;) and one know ones way arounf hope though 6e will do things better...

[R.I.P.]

owowwo

[Something completely different]

The basics are simple but combining classes and spells is where the fun is in 5E.

Too bad Multiclassing isn't in, no idea if it will be later.

[Mr Fred]

I 100% agree with you that the game would have been 10x better for veteran players with 3.5 dnd or pathfinder 1.0 but if I'm being honest I would have voted for the game to be with 5e if I were an investor.

The lvl 4 current cap really accentuate the issue because basic things like base attack bonus dont exist anymore. A 16 str character of any class having the same chance to hit for 4 lvl straight is depressing.

[Alealexi]

I like 5e. I prefer the more streamlined character creation & ruleset over the rules bloat that Pathfinder 1e is. In pathfinder if you don't have the necessary knowledge to break a character then it is no fun at all and it is less fun for new players with the only excuse new players are given is "you just don't know the (library of) rules yet". It is no wonder so many people were turned away from D&D until 5e came around. I would not introduce new players to Pathfinder until the have a decent D&D knowledge.

On the other hand I would not mind a **REAL** Pathfinder game that is turn base like the real game. Just not 2e or another crappy RTS like Kingmaker.

[Mr Fred]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

I like 5e. I prefer the more streamlined character creation & ruleset over the rules bloat that Pathfinder 1e is. In pathfinder if you don't have the necessary knowledge to break a character then it is no fun at all and it is less fun for new players with the only excuse new players are given is "you just don't know the (library of) rules yet". It is no wonder so many people were turned away from D&D until 5e came around.

On the other hand I would not mind a **REAL** Pathfinder game that is turn base like the real game. Just not 2e or another crappy RTS like Kingmaker.

There is is a turn based option in Kingmaker and you can swap between both mode.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Mr Fred:

Originally posted by Alealexi:

I like 5e. I prefer the more streamlined character creation & ruleset over the rules bloat that Pathfinder 1e is. In pathfinder if you don't have the necessary knowledge to break a character then it is no fun at all and it is less fun for new players with the only excuse new players are given is "you just don't know the (library of) rules yet". It is no wonder so many people were turned away from D&D until 5e came around.

On the other hand I would not mind a **REAL** Pathfinder game that is turn base like the real game. Just not 2e or another crappy RTS like Kingmaker.

There is is a turn based option in Kingmaker and you can swap between both mode.

You mean the half assed turn base moded they added that is not optimized for an RTS designed game? Where it doesn't bring you into initiative until after you are attacked in an ambush?

[Mr Fred]

I mean the perfectly functional mode that you can swap around at your convenience.
It does the job its suppose to be doing, call it half assed if it make you feel special I dont have anything else to say on the matter.

[Brimcon]

I feel like trying to adapt the entirety of 3.5's rules would make both character creation and gameplay an extremely long and tedious process. You can't tell me that the long list of skills on top of the massive number of feats being shoved in your face is a good thing.

Kingmaker did this with their feat choices and 9/10 times you would choose the same feat on a particular level for pretty much every character. Tell me how many times someone would seriously choose Lightning Reflexes or anything else that just gives a flat +1 or +2 to a circumstantial bonus that you would see maybe once or twice a campaign.

Yeah you have a ton of options and skills, but a lot of them are glazed over or ignored in video game formats or outright declared "Trap Options": IE Lightning Reflexes.

While yes, we got these rules in NWN 1/2 and Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but those games highlight the flaws of 3.x where only certain things are viable or even useful. Everyone and their brother wants Dodge, or Blind Fighting. Ranged characters need Point Blank Shot and Precise shot to even function. Feat taxes upon Feat taxes.

In my opinion, these things are not fun, nor are they meaningful choices. 5e at least in my opinion gives you those meaningful choices and allows characters to be more adaptable, more broad than just being pigeon holed into something.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Mr Fred:

I mean the perfectly functional mode that you can swap around at your convenience.
It does the job its suppose to be doing, call it half assed if it make you feel special I dont have anything else to say on the matter.

All I want is a pathfinder game that is designed around TBS from the ground up and is optimized for it. An actual emulation of the PnP version and not a half assed turn base mode. It was a quality of life change for kingmaker as a large community wanted it, but the game just isn't designed for as it was designed by the RTS community. Either way I still prefer 5e over pathfinder/3.5.

[Aldain]

Having played some modded Kingmaker (with mods that add in more of Pathfinder's Archetypes and Feats/Spells) I can safely say that trimming the fat was a practical thing for 5e to do.

There's a point where "complexity" becomes needlessly bloated, I'd rather a single feat that does one big thing than 3-4 feats that have to work together to do one thing well. Having to read a build flowchart to figure things out isn't the high point of games or PnP for me.

I still enjoy Kingmaker, but I turned the difficulty down because boy howdy do I not have the time nor &%^#s to give to memorize the laundry list of functions and math just to be practical.

[Alealexi]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Having played some modded Kingmaker (with mods that add in more of Pathfinder's Archetypes and Feats/Spells) I can safely say that trimming the fat was a practical thing for 5e to do.

There's a point where "complexity" becomes needlessly bloated, I'd rather a single feat that does one big thing than 3-4 feats that have to work together to do one thing well. Having to read a build flowchart to figure things out isn't the high point of games or PnP for me.

I still enjoy Kingmaker, but I turned the difficulty down because boy howdy do I not have the time nor &%^#s to give to memorize the laundry list of functions and math just to be practical.

Not to mention that there are a numbe... library of feats with only a handful that are only ever used. Then there are a large number of spell books that are just copy and pasted with the only difference is a damage type or a spell that a DM would never let you use.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Alealexi:

Not to mention that there are a numbe... library of feats with only a handful that are only ever used. Then there are a large number of spell books that are just copy and pasted with the only difference is a damage type or a spell that a DM would never let you use.

Adding to that, there's also way too many "Discard and Draw" type spells, things that don't scale well (if at all) and only exist to be learned to replace their stronger version, I'm not even talking about the Communal versions I mean Sleep>Greater Sleep or other such things that only exist to be a higher level spell for later game enemies.

Cantrips are also pretty much useless, Ray of Frost/Jolt for example are flat out useless even at level 1 because a crossbow does 1d8 while those two do 1d3 with zero scaling.

3.5/Pathfinder to me seems to have the issue of "Why does this even exist?" cropping up far more often than it should, too many things are just bad even when compared to middle of the road things.

[Oku]

3.5 was my favorite but honestly, 5E did a great job of pruning all the needlessly complex ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that made it unapproachable for a lot of people. I'm happy with the hobby being made more accessible to more people, and the rules being much more easily translatable in to games that arent in the TT format.

[Damashi The Kaotic]

Originally posted by Something completely different:

The basics are simple but combining classes and spells is where the fun is in 5E.

Too bad Multiclassing isn't in, no idea if it will be later.

Multiclassing will be in the game, but Larain hasn't said when it'll be implemented for early access, nut it will be in the game at launch.