Why does Raphael make me an offer that I can't accept?

[hicks.daniel.j]

I'm mostly through my second, "evil" playthrough and got the Raphael cutscene on a long rest. Being a Charismatic but not particularly Wise or Intelligent Warlock who has no qualms about making deals with devils, I said that "I would do anything" to get rid of the tadpole. Raphael laughed something about "usually my prey puts up more of a fight," then proceeded with the "try all of the other options, and eventually you'll come back to me" lines, as though I had refused his offer.

I understand the narrative reasons why the PC can't actually accept Raphael's offer this early in the game. And most characters will have the good sense to turn down this offer. But the dialogue really doesn't work for the small number of characters who would be happy to take it.

[Wraith]

Because he aiming for something that you have and wants you to be desperate enough to accept all his terms with no negotiation.
Gale gives a pretty good conversation about it.

[Brady4444]

That's the challenge when writing in things like devils/angels/ultimate good/evil types. Even most evil characters would not want to deal with devils due to the obvious risk/reward never coming out in favor of the player on this sort of thing.

If you talked to the tiefling characters in the Druid Grove, then you know the gist of the story of Elturel. That's what happens when you think you can get something good from a devil. Or perhaps desperate enough to hope the devil won't be as bad as the tadpole.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by Brady4444:

That's the challenge when writing in things like devils/angels/ultimate good/evil types. Even most evil characters would not want to deal with devils due to the obvious risk/reward never coming out in favor of the player on this sort of thing.

If you talked to the tiefling characters in the Druid Grove, then you know the gist of the story of Elturel. That's what happens when you think you can get something good from a devil. Or perhaps desperate enough to hope the devil won't be as bad as the tadpole.

At best, people would have to hope for something like this. lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBn3utR_lgY

[hicks.daniel.j]

Yes, of course as a player I fully realize that making the deal with Raphael would be a terrible idea. My point is that some PCs won't fully realize it, will be arrogant enough to think they can outsmart a Cambion, might be super desperate after almost every other lead has dried up, or whatever; and so the PC might be inclined to take the deal right away. The dialogue options don't reflect that possibility, and indeed the only option that comes close to accepting the offer gets a response as though the PC turned it down. Frankly, it's railroading the player into choosing to decline the offer.

Here's another way of putting my point. Raphael makes an explicit offer. Either he shouldn't make such an offer if the narrative isn't ready for the PC to accept it, or (like with every other possibility you can explore in EA) it shouldn't work and introduce some complications. Like a good DM, the game should run with the PC's terrible decision in interesting ways.

For example, if the PC accepts Raphael's offer, suppose the Cambion attempts to remove the tadpole only to discover that it's warded against magical removal by devils specifically. Raphael is embarrassed — which could be hilarious BTW — and says he'll need the PC to obtain a macguffin from some lich's tomb or something later in the game. This delays the narrative effects of accepting the offer and even adds a sidequest that could give completionist players an incentive to accept the deal with the devil.

[Brian Sirith]

Yeah, I kinda agree with you. I've been making terrible decisions all game justifying it as 'I'm desperate and so arrogant that I think no one can get the better of me' My char would probably be dumb enough to take that offer.

They could have handled it better.

Edit: Actually I noticed it in a few places on replaying just to see other options. Sometimes -mainly in the main plot- you get railroaded. Don't mind really but Raphael specifically didnt make much sense. I just had my eye removed making a deal with a hag.

>> Raphael laughed something about "usually my prey puts up more of a fight," then proceeded with the "try all of the other options, and eventually you'll come back to me"

This sounds dumb. Of the writers not you :P

[Wither]

...
People romanticize corporate contract and bank's interest rate too much.
Then again Raphael SELL his offer very hard. So hard that it ringing suspicion.
Judge by how useful and haphazard those 'help' has be given so far, I doubt there are method to remove the worm. Even with these 'devil offer'.

[Brian Sirith]

Originally posted by Spider:

...
People romanticize corporate contract and bank's interest rate too much.
Then again Raphael SELL his offer very hard. So hard that it ringing suspicion.
Judge by how useful and haphazard those 'help' has be given so far, I doubt there are method to remove the worm. Even with these 'devil offer'.

People roleplay different characters. My Divine Divinity character's intelligence level was 'Your mom says you're special but everyone else thinks you're stupid'

Has nothing to do with what you as the player perceive.

[Indure]

Taking the devil's offer is no more stupid than taking the hags, goblin priestess, or volo's.

[Brian Sirith]

Originally posted by Indure:

Taking the devil's offer is no more stupid than taking the hags, goblin priestess, or volo's.

More or less. If that tadpole develops you're 100% dead and you have absolutely no idea if it won't develop in the next hour. At least with the Devil you could say that you get time to wiggle out of the contract. Yeah, sure he'll probably get the upper hand. But... you could be dead in the next day!

[akerbouchard11]

I'm wondering if/when we'll be able to use the soul coin. I'd really like to be able to make the deal with Raphael for one soul, hand him the coin, and leave laughing.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Indure:

Taking the devil's offer is no more stupid than taking the hags, goblin priestess, or volo's.

I'd argue it technically is smarter, because at least the Devil will actually get the job done, sure for an insane price, but that's much better than "-1 eyeball".

[Brian Sirith]

Originally posted by akerbouchard11:

I'm wondering if/when we'll be able to use the soul coin. I'd really like to be able to make the deal with Raphael for one soul, hand him the coin, and leave laughing.

[Brian Sirith]

On another note OP... maybe the title is a bit spoilerish? The 'I cant accept bit'? Just a thought

[Brady4444]

Originally posted by akerbouchard11:

I'm wondering if/when we'll be able to use the soul coin. I'd really like to be able to make the deal with Raphael for one soul, hand him the coin, and leave laughing.

I hope they let us know who/what the soul belongs to first. It would be more meaningful if we were trading away the soul of an angel or plot character.

[RJM]

Originally posted by Brady4444:

Originally posted by akerbouchard11:

I'm wondering if/when we'll be able to use the soul coin. I'd really like to be able to make the deal with Raphael for one soul, hand him the coin, and leave laughing.

I hope they let us know who/what the soul belongs to first. It would be more meaningful if we were trading away the soul of an angel or plot character.

Soul coins are currency in the hells, they crop up a bit in the 5e module Descent into Avernus. It may be possible to communicate with the coin as the game develops, but it's only supposed to give vague answers so that may just be a source of frustration to players rather than an enjoyable experience.