Daggers

[Chicodi]

Im playing a rogue (dual weilding) and im wondering if there is any point in using daggers instead of short swords, since they do more damage

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by pgm96:

Originally posted by Zouls:

And then we are back to the second reason why 5e sucks balls, dex is a god stat that will beat all else and makes strength useless. but anyone who doesnt use light or mage armor has a dex cap hence more dex isnt more AC.

Yeah, but your rogue should be using a no cap dex armor, and dex os not a god stat, rogues still do less damage than str fighters with great weapon master

They actually do far more damage but game is unfortunately busted and only allows sneaks on main hand.
Then just wait for paladins and i wonder if theyll let you do crit confirmed smites....

[Forechosen]

Originally posted by Zouls:

Originally posted by Forechosen:

I mean, with all due respect (genuinely) I just completely disagree with you - regarding daggers at least.

Sure, their damage is less. But as I mentioned in my previous post, there are situations where they are preferable. I mean, many situations where a dagger is preferable. Guard confiscates your party's weapons? Hide a dagger or two. And you certainly can't throw a rapier at somebody.

The rapier does more damage, that's it's only benefit. It's a big benefit, but realistically, for a *rogue* who gets at *most* two attacks - and who's main source of damage by a *large margin* is sneak attack damage (completely independent of weapon type) - the difference between a dagger and rapier is insubstantial, in my opinion.

I think I might argue differently if we were talking about other classes. But for rogue especially, I think daggers are absolutely fine.

Regarding your other comparisons.. a greatclub is a simple weapon, whilst a greataxe is a martial one. That's a big mechanical difference for one - let alone the damage type is different (bludgeoning Vs slashing).

I get your point though, some weapons *are* pretty much completely, completely inferior to other weapons. The tridant is almost universally acknowledged to be the worst weapon. That being said, 5e is balanced enough that you could use *easily* use a blowgun/tridant wielding character and still keep up with everybody else.

Fourth reason 5e sucks, 95% of the rules says "ask your DM" instead of actually having rules for it which leads to extreme amounts of homebrew which skews any discussion on it, you have games where daggers are easier to hide? there are no rules for it so its the DM to make one,

There are also no rules for how many weapons you can wear, its a free action to draw a weapon once but its a full action if you do it more than that, a dagger can be thrown 20 feet, and beyond that its with disadvantage, Not to mention that ranged attacks when you are within 5 feet of a hostile target gives you disadvantage.

On top of that you have movement that you can split up however you want to dash around and attack hence you are going to be meleeing most of the time regardless

Oh yeah and you can also only get sneak attack on advantage or one of your allies being within 5 feat of them.

It just doenst hold up, damage is almost the ONLY thing that matters in 5e for weapons and anything beyond that is homebrew. and doing 2 average damage more per attack is going to matter a ton when at level 5 or so you get a single +1, and first at level 12 you get a +2 to attack and damage.

Eh well, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. It's true that the DM has more say in 5e - but in my opinion that's a huge improvement over other editions, for various reasons.

To say that "if there's not a rule, it's homebrew" just strikes me as misleading. Doing a sleight of hand/stealth/dexterity check to hide a dagger isn't homebrew, it's exactly the sort of situation the skill system is designed in encapsulate. And ofcourse hiding a dagger is going to be an easier check than hiding a shortsword or a greataxe!

No rule for how many weapons you can wear? Ofcourse not, but there are rules for carrying capacity, and even if you ignore that - are you really saying you'd be cool playing in a game where your party are all wearing 12+ weapons each? I wouldn't say that's "homebrew nonsense" to say that's ridiculous.

I'm aware how throwing a dagger works, and my point is not that it's a bad ranged weapon - it's that it's an 1000x better ranged weapon than a shortsword or rapier.

Lastly, I'm aware how sneak attack works too! And the rogue absolutely wants to be doing it every turn. *Sometimes* you won't be able to, but those are infrequent enough to be largely irrelevant.

[Sentient Roomba]

Originally posted by Voodoo:

Originally posted by pgm96:

Yeah, but your rogue should be using a no cap dex armor, and dex os not a god stat, rogues still do less damage than str fighters with great weapon master

They actually do far more damage but game is unfortunately busted and only allows sneaks on main hand.
Then just wait for paladins and i wonder if theyll let you do crit confirmed smites....

even in actual DnD you only get one sneak attack per round, but if your main hand misses you can sneak with the offhand instead is the only difference, which is a bug in BG3 currently

[Voodoo]

Originally posted by Dr. Mantis Toboggan:

Originally posted by Voodoo:

They actually do far more damage but game is unfortunately busted and only allows sneaks on main hand.
Then just wait for paladins and i wonder if theyll let you do crit confirmed smites....

even in actual DnD you only get one sneak attack per round, but if your main hand misses you can sneak with the offhand instead is the only difference, which is a bug in BG3 currently

Yes 1 per round, not only mainhand.
If you miss with main hand you can still use offhand and do sneak with it or if you feel confident in your to hit you can fish for crits.

[Qiox]

The Ritual Dagger is great as on off hand weapon. After a successful attack gives +1d4 to attack rolls and saves for 1 turn.

[rock]

In pen & paper dual wielding is usually sub-par. The only reason you would take it as a rogue is to have another chance at a sneak attack with your off-hand, because in 5e sneak attack damage goes up as you level (1d6, 2d6, 3d6, etc). This doesn't seem to be the case in BG3, which is a shame.

There is also an odd bug where the tooltip for off-hand attack lists the damage as dice+attribute, where the +attribute would only apply if you have the two weapon fighting style. Rogues do not have it, yet it still seems to deal the same damage.

Also, taking dual wielder isn't worth it for the damage boost, but the AC bonus is nice.

[Tario]

Oh my gawd. So funny discussion. I mean... Cmon, guys. Do you really thing there was, a way... Like, ever to pick dagger rather than rapier? Especialy that there will be more subclasses later on, and fun factt... Like daggers are cool and all, but only in situation when you have magical one.

[Kris]

Originally posted by Voodoo:

Originally posted by Dr. Mantis Toboggan:

even in actual DnD you only get one sneak attack per round, but if your main hand misses you can sneak with the offhand instead is the only difference, which is a bug in BG3 currently

Yes 1 per round, not only mainhand.
If you miss with main hand you can still use offhand and do sneak with it or if you feel confident in your to hit you can fish for crits.

actually, in this game, sneak attacks are their own attack action. so if your main attack misses in BG3, you lose sneak attack for the entire round. however due to another weird coding issue/design choice, you can attack 3 times when duel wielding or 4 as a thief duel wielding as the sneak attack action makes 2 attacks and you can your bonus actions for even more attacks. it's very, very weird.

[Pat]

Originally posted by RockTheShoulder:

In pen & paper dual wielding is usually sub-par. The only reason you would take it as a rogue is to have another chance at a sneak attack with your off-hand, because in 5e sneak attack damage goes up as you level (1d6, 2d6, 3d6, etc). This doesn't seem to be the case in BG3, which is a shame.

There is also an odd bug where the tooltip for off-hand attack lists the damage as dice+attribute, where the +attribute would only apply if you have the two weapon fighting style. Rogues do not have it, yet it still seems to deal the same damage.

Also, taking dual wielder isn't worth it for the damage boost, but the AC bonus is nice.

With them saying the max level is being increased from 10 in the final release, just assuming it's 12, multiclassing 1 fighter/11 rogue(swashbuckler) and guessing that +2 might be the best we'll get late game as +3 would be a bit too strong, with Variant Human for Dual Wielder at level 1, and at least 2 ABI for 20 Dex using 27 point buy.

Both your rapiers have an accuracy of +11, and a damage of 1d8+7, if you're facing normal schmuck who happens to have normal plate and a shield has an AC of 20, at 12 with +2 Rapier you need a minimum of 9 to hit,

Being a Swashbuckler you've pulled that guy away from everyone giving you your sneak attack of 6d6 + 1d8+7 with an average damage of 25+7, a possible maximum of 51 + 15, the maximum is enough to kill a lot of non boss monsters.

If you crit with your first attack that's 12d6 (because sneak attack does get the double dice from critting) + 2d8+7 which averages to 51+7 damage, maximum of 95 + 15, with maximum damage that's an outright kill a lot monsters ranging from CR5 to CR13, the off-hand attack can easily make or break a kill.