What's the point of tanks characters when enemies focus mages 80% of the time?

[DrakenKin]

No matter where you place the mage, front, back, behind, far behind, flanks, surrounded with friendlies, a lot of the time the AI will just focus him first and keep focusing him every time you revive him.

Spiders will all teleport on mage until he dies. Skeletons will all walk up to him to attack him even at the cost of getting hit by opportunity attacks. Etc.

The tanks have no taunts or ability to protect their teammates, I can't even pin down an enemy by being at melee range, because they don't seem to care about opportunity hits. Tanks are also very rarely focused. I bet the AI just goes for whoever has the least AC, which is smart and makes sens, and frankly i like an AI that tries to win.

But that means that every class including fighters should go DPS and the only AC that matters is the lowest one. Since mages end up with the lowest most of the time, you'll want to build them as tanks or at least multiclass into a tank class (when it will become possible). Which is kinda weird. I mean i'll do it, but it's weird to have this as a consequence of how AI behaves.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Indure]

Make the mage less apealing to hit, ie mage armor or mirror image.

All fighters should be focused on damage for the most part. You get high AC for picking the class and you have a lot of free ability points to dump into con. So tankiness is the baseline for a fighter. The only defensive vs offensive choice you make is whether you want to use a shield for more defense or a two hander for more damage.

[Bijat]

Yea you don´t understand DnD, there is no tank and cleric is not a true healer (spell slots to valuable to be wasted on healing for the most part). Fighter is damage machine.

[peacesFGC twitch.tv]

fighter is the tank. he takes point. you want to give him the best armor and shield so he has great armor class. so he doesnt get hit.

[Cassilda]

"Tanking" in D&D5 does not work in the classic MMO sense. There is no aggro to manage. There are some taunt type abilities and spell but most are not in the game yet.

D&D5 combat is all about proper positioning, proper focus and efficient action economy. You have plenty of spells and abilities to restraint the movements of the enemies. If they teleport onto you just stay grouped and gang up on them.

Spellcasters don't need to be built as tank, they have plenty of defensives options. And in 5e, the best defense is a good offense. Efficiently eleminating foes to reduce their action economy is the most important thing. Kill now, not later.

Also there are ways do build some more defense oriented characters in 5e, but not really with the current class and abilities available in the Early Access.

[0utlaw]

So many of these posts are missing the OP's point. "you don't understand D&D..." this isn't helping.

The AI seems to specifically target the mage even at the cost of running a gauntlet opportunity attacks. I didn't notice it as most of my runs have been with a mage and I just thought the AI for some reason targeted me, now playing a Warlock with Gale on the team and I see them seemingly bum rushing him, while the thief unloads with sneak attacks and my Warlock Hex/Spears them.

[Dorok]

Lowest AC, in older D&D wizards had tools for that, and more than one. Well perhaps not at level 1&2.

[Noah]

I think the main problem is that mindless beasts shouldn't be tactically focusing mages. I'm fine when bandits/mercenaries and gith do it, but it's weird when animals do it too.

[FissionChips]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Lowest AC, in older D&D wizards had tools for that, and more than one. Well perhaps not at level 1&2.

That's what I figured. I just have all my ranged characters hide after their main actions if they're threatened. Fog Cloud is your friend.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Robocop:

Originally posted by Dorok:

Lowest AC, in older D&D wizards had tools for that, and more than one. Well perhaps not at level 1&2.

That's what I figured. I just have all my ranged characters hide after their main actions if they're threatened. Fog Cloud is your friend.

Lol that's why characters have this action, some players complained it wasn't fitting rules of D&D, only some specific builds should have it.

[DrakenKin]

Yes i am aware that there is no typical tank role. BUT, in most RPGs, AIs target the closest enemy, or obey specific rules that makes it possible for you to make a specific character take most of the damage. It could be by shortest distance, it could be whoever is not in cover (so you make everyone take cover except for the tank), or some other rules such as AIs not moving if they are gonna take opportunity attacks, with makes it possible to pin the AI down with the tank and summons.

Here, it seems none of that works. So everybody has to be reasonable at taking damage, meaning you can't do most glass cannons builds, and you can't have any squishies like mages dedicated to skill checks and spells and wearing nothing but clothes on their back, relying solely on good positioning and knowledge of how the AI will prioritize.

Well technically you can go full DPS, balls to the walls, kill-them-before-they-kill-you build. Assuming it's possible against big mobs and big targets like minotaurs, will test and see if this works. But it's not looking good since at level 4 you don't have many options to do uber damage.

To make it short, it's not the mechanics of DnD that changed, it's the behavior of the AI that punishes some builds.

[DAVOS CENSORSHIP 2030 FTW!!!]

Hide at the end of turn with all squishies after moving always. They literally want you to use it cause they heavy scripted all the enemies to go for wizard and squishies first always. They also want you to constantly use terrain to your advantage, like trolling enemies with doorways.

[DrakenKin]

Originally posted by Kaine:

Hide at the end of turn with all squishies after moving always. They literally want you to use it cause they scripted all the enemies to go for wizard and squishies first always.

I've been doing that, it works when there's high ground or cover to mask the visibility cone. But a lot of the fights are in the open.

I mean don't get me wrong, i am not complaining that it's too hard or anything. Just that i'd rather use something like a rogue that has both damage and high AC from dexterity, than a wizard or similar that basically is gonna burn his spell slots casting mage armor every fight just to stay alive. Every protection spell that you have to cast is not a CC or a massive damage spell that you want to be casting instead.

Compare a class that has to waste a couple of turns casting protection spells to a class that can do damage and focus on damage right from the start because their AC is passive and not active. And that has no visible downsides to balance that fact. Rogue can do decent damage, backstab, get good AC, sneak etc etc. And consider also that the game is so punishing to casters in requiring frequent rest between fights just to get their utility back. A lot is pointing to physical classes just being better class to have a more fluid experience of the game.

You'll want to dust off that wizard and shaman companions if you encounter some physically resistant monsters. Switching companions is just so simple and quick, no reason to build the whole party for flexibility when you can just smash fight after fight with rogues and fighters.

[SkilledZero]

Why would you cast mage armor every fight? it lasts until long rest and even persists through downed and death status. The first thing you should always do is cast mage armor after a long rest, along with any other spell you want to cast like a cleric's aid spell. I'd be weary of a concentration spell but casting bless 2 ahead of time isn't a bad idea just position shadowheart out of the way when it's her turn to not get focus'd out of concentration.

[Lanto]

Stop applying MMO logic to DnD.

[Grand Admiral Sakuya Moonshade]

use mage armor, one thing that i notice is that the AI will try to get your guy with the lowest AC, so you can try to make your ranged characters shoot things and get cover behind corners or spam mage armor + shield of faith