Ranger is more Rogue than Rogue is.

[CrimsonForest]

Rangers can chose Bounty Hunter and Urban Tracker, which together give you proficiencies in Thieves' Cant, Thieves' Tools, and even Disguise Kit. The Rogue doesn't get any of these at character creation. Or at least it isn't apparent.

Most of what makes a Rogue has been stripped. No Thieves' Tool proficiencies, no Thieve's Cant mentioned (Really Weird since a Ranger can have it apparently), no Expertise in skills, and every character has 2/3s of cunning action with hide and disengage being bonus actions.

By level 2 a Rogue would have, Thieves' Tools prof, Expertise, Thieves' Cant, Sneak Attack, and being the only class that can dash, hide, and disengage as a bonus action naturally

In Balder Gate 3, by level 2 they only get Sneak Attack and dash as a bonus action, which Expeditious Retreat can do as well.

[wirednight]

I'm not a fan of rogue's in this game. I've seen them add nothing to the game at all, that you can't get better from another class. But then I've never liked rogues in any game, so it's refreshing for once to not have to take one with me, because they are mandatory.

[Enigmatory]

Rogue is rogue cause of sneak attack(1d6 level 1 +extra 1d6 each odd level) and cunning action. Exp Retreat is spell that's need to be casted and it's concentration spells that's break if caster take any damage(if he don't make save throw save ofcourse).
Still no expertise pretty bad cause it's one of improtant class powers.
But that's EA so we just wait and see how things get going.

[Darth Cannabis]

Well, if they add later prestige classes and dual classing, then rogue will always be an essential element due to back stab, as a requirement. It really is a big if, as such prestige classes were introduced between BG2 and present (main videogame example being NVN2).

So IF such prestige classes become a thing here, then backstab of certain level is most likely to be a requirement for things like Assassin and Arcane Trickster. So if any evolved into or prestige classes are added, then rogue is an essential stepping stone to certain ones.

[Kalen]

I know this is a tired response that people have been hearing, but it is EA. They are going to be adding things as time goes on, so right now some classes are subpar in the game or seem pretty basic. Like the rogue. Yeah. It's kit is pretty basic, but that will change in time! Just gotta wait :)

Certain things like Expertise may not be working as intended yet so they haven't added it. Keep in mind: Though they said release is in a year, they also said "when it's ready" and over the course of EA, things will get better! Divinity Original Sin 2 was the same way.

[Enigmatory]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Well, if they add later prestige classes and dual classing, then rogue will always be an essential element due to back stab, as a requirement. It really is a big if, as such prestige classes were introduced between BG2 and present (main videogame example being NVN2).

So IF such prestige classes become a thing here, then backstab of certain level is most likely to be a requirement for things like Assassin and Arcane Trickster.

Hm.. i'm not sure that' sneak attack works as inteded it should work as long as you ally in melee with target. But i'm looks like it'd don't work this way. Correct me if i'm imaginating things.

[[VI] Lycan Lupgarou]

dunno why arcane trickster doesnt get invisibility at 3rd either---but warlock gets it.

[Meowella]

Rogues get thieves tools' proficiency, whether you are aware of it or not.

I agree it's not worth playing a Rogue with the current design of giving away their cunning action (bar dash, but since ranged is much better in Larian games who cares).

A level 3 Thief has 2 bonus actions, meaning 3d6+3 short sword sneak attack plus 2d6 from a pair of bonus actions so a potential of 5d6+3 (20.5 damage)

The level 3 Beastmaster has hunter's mark for great crossbow mark shot plus a spider with 32hp getting all up in their junk and totalling 1d10+1d8+1d6+3 or 16.5 damage at range, or dual wielding for 1d8+2d6+6 which is 17.5 but risks melee.

Larian have screwed Rogues over for now, so we should keep pressuring them to ensure Rogues don't stay like this.

[Northern]

Rogues in general suffer in crpgs. Rogue blumes when skilled player interact with good DM in pen and paper.

Its all about disguising yourself, interacting with criminal NPCs, social roleplay.
When put into PC game rogues not really shine, they are often just skill monkeys.

will see what Larian will do with it during development.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by VI Lycan Lupgarou:

dunno why arcane trickster doesnt get invisibility at 3rd either---but warlock gets it.

It's because Warlock is a full spellcaster and Arcane Trickster isn't.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by VI Lycan Lupgarou:

dunno why arcane trickster doesnt get invisibility at 3rd either---but warlock gets it.

It's because Warlock is a full spellcaster and Arcane Trickster isn't.

So they made Arcane Trickster a subclass of Rogue? (Used to it being a later class evolved into).

Did they do the same with Assassin?

[Kalen]

Originally posted by VI Lycan Lupgarou:

dunno why arcane trickster doesnt get invisibility at 3rd either---but warlock gets it.

The reason for this is actually because Invisibility is a second level spell. Meaning you need second level spell slots to cast it. Arcane Trickster Rogue does not get second level spells until level 7 in 5th edition. You can't even get to level 7 in EA right now so you will never see it.

EDIT: Full casters like Warlocks, Wizards, and Sorcerers see it at level 3 because that's when they gain access to second level spells.

[CrimsonForest]

Originally posted by Kalen:

I know this is a tired response that people have been hearing, but it is EA. They are going to be adding things as time goes on, so right now some classes are subpar in the game or seem pretty basic. Like the rogue. Yeah. It's kit is pretty basic, but that will change in time! Just gotta wait :)

Certain things like Expertise may not be working as intended yet so they haven't added it. Keep in mind: Though they said release is in a year, they also said "when it's ready" and over the course of EA, things will get better! Divinity Original Sin 2 was the same way.

EA can explain certain missing features for sure, like GOO warlocks not having telepathy which wouldn't work well in BG3's format. But the main criticism is that even in EA, a Ranger has access to proficiencies a Rogue should have by default when they are already lacking in identity.

[Kalen]

Originally posted by CrimsonForest:

Originally posted by Kalen:

I know this is a tired response that people have been hearing, but it is EA. They are going to be adding things as time goes on, so right now some classes are subpar in the game or seem pretty basic. Like the rogue. Yeah. It's kit is pretty basic, but that will change in time! Just gotta wait :)

Certain things like Expertise may not be working as intended yet so they haven't added it. Keep in mind: Though they said release is in a year, they also said "when it's ready" and over the course of EA, things will get better! Divinity Original Sin 2 was the same way.

EA can explain certain missing features for sure, like GOO warlocks not having telepathy which wouldn't work well in BG3's format. But the main criticism is that even in EA, a Ranger has access to proficiencies a Rogue should have by default when they are already lacking in identity.

Absolutely. I totally agree with you. Rogue is very lacking right now and I wish they had more of a real kit about them from the start here. There's no denying that. Especially with how developed Ranger is over Rogue. I can imagine that trying to convert 5e mechanics into a video game is a hell of a process and certain choices, based on feedback from players (which if DOS 2 development is any indication), changes will be made.

I think in the near future we will see changes added and Rogue becoming more of a fun and kitted out class. However, for now, it is pretty subpar and generic. I can 100% agree with that.

[Edstyles]

Rogues do get extra bonus move tho. If anything.

Ranger gets a pet and a small selection of skills.

That said I would use ranger than rogue myself :) . THe rogue companion being vampire seems pretty nice tho , adds some extra flavour to the class.

[CrimsonForest]

Originally posted by Phill:

Rogues get thieves tools' proficiency, whether you are aware of it or not.

I agree it's not worth playing a Rogue with the current design of giving away their cunning action (bar dash, but since ranged is much better in Larian games who cares).

A level 3 Thief has 2 bonus actions, meaning 3d6+3 short sword sneak attack plus 2d6 from a pair of bonus actions so a potential of 5d6+3 (20.5 damage)

The level 3 Beastmaster has hunter's mark for great crossbow mark shot plus a spider with 32hp getting all up in their junk and totalling 1d10+1d8+1d6+3 or 16.5 damage at range, or dual wielding for 1d8+2d6+6 which is 17.5 but risks melee.

Larian have screwed Rogues over for now, so we should keep pressuring them to ensure Rogues don't stay like this.

If that's true then those tool prof should really be listed in character creation.

The Thief in a way makes up for these short comings, but that's just a subclass.