Anybody else feel that magic hit rate...

[HTakara]

makes mages feel almost unplayable? if it wasn't for magic missles, and aoe CCs, attack spells are just useless.

[Elminster]

Milkie eredeti hozzászólása:

Hobocop eredeti hozzászólása:

Spells that rely on attack rolls are fine for the most part. The ones that force saves have a lower success rate by design since they tend to have useful additional effects.

In other words, it's D&D working as D&D intended, and there are obviously so, so many people that haven't played it, like OP lol.

Except that average damage output in PnP D&D is much lower due to no pushing, advantage from high ground, splash damage, alchemist fire etc etc

That is why spells feel irrelevant. Much better picking a bow and cantrips and relying on high ground.

[Aldain]

There's a good reason why I just use Magic Missile all the time.

[TheBlueFox]

Wow... I really find it silly that people don't know how to handle mages. Then again, looking at this board many people have issues with playing D&D in general it seems.


The strength of mages is the ability to target NON Ac defenses. If an enemy has high armor class, a mage is going to be stupid useful. Throw a Dexterity save their way in the form of Fireball, Burning hands, or flaming Sphere at them. If they're weighed down by heavy armor, they probably won't be able to move quickly, and failing a save STILL DEALS HALF DAMAGE even if they make it!

Big Burly Beefy Boss coming your way? You know what meat-heads really aren't good at? Being wise. A wizard can target their stupidity and attack their wisdom, charming them, turning them on their allies, or making them just lose turns. You'll laugh at how many turns you can force a Hill Giant to laugh its ass off on the floor with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. The spell Command (halt?) just straight up says "No, you do nothing now, thanks" while your whole team beats them down.

Someone being too quick on their feet? Hit them with a WEB spell. Usually speedy assassins and rogues aren't that physically strong. It's a strength check to break out of webbing, and restrained creatures grant advantage attacking them. THATS when you unleash the AC targeting ranged attacks.


Mages are arguably the MOST ACCURATE, MOST DEADLY damage dealers in the game, because they can target whichever part of you is the weakest. Second only to Archery style Fighters/rangers because let's face it, +7 to your attack at level 2 with the ability to gain advantage on your attack every turn just throws up a big middle finger to anyone on the field.

They can give themselves advantage with invisibility and BLINDNESS, they can fly or teleport to unreachable areas, they can surround themselves with duplicates that make them almost unhittable!

I'm so frustrated when people thing something is terrible because they aren't using it right...

[TheBlueFox]

And in defense of Clerics, Shadowheart is a terrible cleric.

I made a Lolth Drow Trickery Cleric. 14 str, 14 dex, 16 wis, 14 con I think...

She was a BEAST. Gith half plate and a shield put her at a standing 18 AC, 27 AC under mirror image. She was unhittable, and nearly never lost concentration on a spell. Nobody would attack her because her AC was so high the enemy knew it would miss. She was blasting people with Inflict wounds from behind, or smacking them with a mace upside their head. Arguably the most powerful character I made so far, Couple that with Thaumaturgy and Guidance (which STACK) and she could handle ANY social interaction better than the rest of the group. a really fun playthrough.

[jffrspuk]

GrandMajora eredeti hozzászólása:

SACRED FLAME SUCKS!!!

Not when they are prone as that is a guaranteed hit.

Ok it is 1D8 radiant but that is good enough to keep the hit point ticker going. It is also one of the damage types that have very few creatures which are resistant/immune to the damage.

[ShiroiWolf]

Mages are weak in this game? They're no longer walking Tier 1 gods of the tabletop?

Rise my brothers and sisters of the Fighter class! The Tyranny of the Magocracy is at an end!

ok seriously though, Yes, Casters were reigned in a bit with 5e.

1st, the push to stop 5-minute days (AKA "Nova and a Nap")

2nd. Spells no longer scale automatically with the caster's level. More Power Requires More Resources, thus require casting at a higher level spell slot (reduce the effect of "Linear Warriors, Quadratec Wizards")

3rd: Make spell slots more limited, thus encouraging players to be more careful with their resources.

In exchange however:

1: Cantrips are unlimited use, and always give the caster a means of doing something

2. You don't have to prepare spells multiple times to repeatedly use it throughout the day, Prepare once, and so long as you have a spell slot to cast it, you can.

3. There is a much better definition of power between spell levels. Levels 1-3 are general use, 4-5 for tends to to pack power but still have multiple uses. 6-7 are good for getting out a tight spot, and 8-9 can flip entire events into the caster's favor.

[jffrspuk]

TheBlueFox eredeti hozzászólása:

And in defense of Clerics, Shadowheart is a terrible cleric.

I made a Lolth Drow Trickery Cleric. 14 str, 14 dex, 16 wis, 14 con I think...

She was a BEAST. Gith half plate and a shield put her at a standing 18 AC, 27 AC under mirror image. She was unhittable, and nearly never lost concentration on a spell. Nobody would attack her because her AC was so high the enemy knew it would miss. She was blasting people with Inflict wounds from behind, or smacking them with a mace upside their head. Arguably the most powerful character I made so far, Couple that with Thaumaturgy and Guidance (which STACK) and she could handle ANY social interaction better than the rest of the group. a really fun playthrough.

Agreed, she is not how I would build a cleric as I would have dumped both Charisma and Intelligence.

[Elminster]

ShiroiWolf eredeti hozzászólása:

Mages are weak in this game? They're no longer walking Tier 1 gods of the tabletop?

Rise my brothers and sisters of the Fighter class! The Tyranny of the Magocracy is at an end!

ok seriously though, Yes, Casters were reigned in a bit with 5e.

1st, the push to stop 5-minute days (AKA "Nova and a Nap")

2nd. Spells no longer scale automatically with the caster's level. More Power Requires More Resources, thus require casting at a higher level spell slot (reduce the effect of "Linear Warriors, Quadratec Wizards")

3rd: Make spell slots more limited, thus encouraging players to be more careful with their resources.

In exchange however:

1: Cantrips are unlimited use, and always give the caster a means of doing something

2. You don't have to prepare spells multiple times to repeatedly use it throughout the day, Prepare once, and so long as you have a spell slot to cast it, you can.

3. There is a much better definition of power between spell levels. Levels 1-3 are general use, 4-5 for tends to to pack power but still have multiple uses. 6-7 are good for getting out a tight spot, and 8-9 can flip entire events into the caster's favor.

In older D&D versions arcane caster where bystander until level 5, glass cannons till level 11, then they where gods, with so many tools that other classes became bystanders.

5e has rebalanced that. A welcome change.

[Elminster]

TheBlueFox eredeti hozzászólása:

Wow... I really find it silly that people don't know how to handle mages. Then again, looking at this board many people have issues with playing D&D in general it seems.


The strength of mages is the ability to target NON Ac defenses. If an enemy has high armor class, a mage is going to be stupid useful. Throw a Dexterity save their way in the form of Fireball, Burning hands, or flaming Sphere at them. If they're weighed down by heavy armor, they probably won't be able to move quickly, and failing a save STILL DEALS HALF DAMAGE even if they make it!

Big Burly Beefy Boss coming your way? You know what meat-heads really aren't good at? Being wise. A wizard can target their stupidity and attack their wisdom, charming them, turning them on their allies, or making them just lose turns. You'll laugh at how many turns you can force a Hill Giant to laugh its ass off on the floor with Tasha's Hideous Laughter. The spell Command (halt?) just straight up says "No, you do nothing now, thanks" while your whole team beats them down.

Someone being too quick on their feet? Hit them with a WEB spell. Usually speedy assassins and rogues aren't that physically strong. It's a strength check to break out of webbing, and restrained creatures grant advantage attacking them. THATS when you unleash the AC targeting ranged attacks.


Mages are arguably the MOST ACCURATE, MOST DEADLY damage dealers in the game, because they can target whichever part of you is the weakest. Second only to Archery style Fighters/rangers because let's face it, +7 to your attack at level 2 with the ability to gain advantage on your attack every turn just throws up a big middle finger to anyone on the field.

They can give themselves advantage with invisibility and BLINDNESS, they can fly or teleport to unreachable areas, they can surround themselves with duplicates that make them almost unhittable!

I'm so frustrated when people thing something is terrible because they aren't using it right...

Except that with the massive advantage that archers have in BG3 and without 3rd level spells wizards feel very weak. alchemist fire / barrels / racial cantrip firebolt / pin down >> wizards

[Fett]

HTakara eredeti hozzászólása:

makes mages feel almost unplayable? if it wasn't for magic missles, and aoe CCs, attack spells are just useless.

Agree. It feels redundant and adds another layer of annoyance just due to precious nature of spells (seeing you have to rest to get them back). Resistance/Saving throws should have been enough.

[Daliena]

Fett eredeti hozzászólása:

HTakara eredeti hozzászólása:

makes mages feel almost unplayable? if it wasn't for magic missles, and aoe CCs, attack spells are just useless.

Agree. It feels redundant and adds another layer of annoyance just due to precious nature of spells (seeing you have to rest to get them back). Resistance/Saving throws should have been enough.

Okay, but like.. Certain spells have always had hit rolls instead of saving throws. Scorching Ray comes to mind as one. No-one has ever rolled a saving throw VS Scorching Ray. It's always been the caster rolling to hit their target. So what, should they just auto-hit, and thus make any damage spell that requires a saving throw highly unattractive by comparison?

[Elminster]

Daliena eredeti hozzászólása:

Fett eredeti hozzászólása:

Agree. It feels redundant and adds another layer of annoyance just due to precious nature of spells (seeing you have to rest to get them back). Resistance/Saving throws should have been enough.

Okay, but like.. Certain spells have always had hit rolls instead of saving throws. Scorching Ray comes to mind as one. No-one has ever rolled a saving throw VS Scorching Ray. It's always been the caster rolling to hit their target. So what, should they just auto-hit, and thus make any damage spell that requires a saving throw highly unattractive by comparison?

The problem comes from Larian house rules and abundance of explosives making spells a lot less relevant, damage output is higher than in vanilla D&D 5e so spells which are tuned for normal 5e feel weak.

Cantrips on the other hand are the main tool of spell caster it seems and have been pushed higher with surface effects. Spell are more or less panic buttons and cc tools.

[Fett]

Daliena eredeti hozzászólása:

Fett eredeti hozzászólása:

Agree. It feels redundant and adds another layer of annoyance just due to precious nature of spells (seeing you have to rest to get them back). Resistance/Saving throws should have been enough.

Okay, but like.. Certain spells have always had hit rolls instead of saving throws. Scorching Ray comes to mind as one. No-one has ever rolled a saving throw VS Scorching Ray. It's always been the caster rolling to hit their target. So what, should they just auto-hit, and thus make any damage spell that requires a saving throw highly unattractive by comparison?

Well, true. It depends i suppose. Well, saving throws takes that into account right? You dodge a certain spell, and sometimes that makes you take no damage, or sometimes half. Like many aoe's does. Jury's out for me as of yet. We'll see how it translates in the finished product.

Edit: Side not question: Are there percentage resistances in dnd5 as there were in earlier Baldurs Gate titles? Fire/ice/Acid/Magic etc?

[Daliena]

Fett eredeti hozzászólása:

Daliena eredeti hozzászólása:

Okay, but like.. Certain spells have always had hit rolls instead of saving throws. Scorching Ray comes to mind as one. No-one has ever rolled a saving throw VS Scorching Ray. It's always been the caster rolling to hit their target. So what, should they just auto-hit, and thus make any damage spell that requires a saving throw highly unattractive by comparison?

Well, true. It depends i suppose. Well, saving throws takes that into account right? You dodge a certain spell, and sometimes that makes you take no damage, or sometimes half. Like many aoe's does. Jury's out for me as of yet. We'll see how it translates in the finished product.

Edit: Side not question: Are there percentage resistances in dnd5 as there were in earlier Baldurs Gate titles? Fire/ice/Acid/Magic etc?

With hit-roll spells like Scorching Ray, either they hit for full damage or they miss for no damage. Some saving throw spells are the same way, the target fails their save and takes the full effect, or succeeds and avoids it entirely.

Others (like Fireball to name a famous one) are 'save for half', so if you pull off your save you take half the damage (don't remember if it rounds up or down admittedly), with some things like a Rogue with the level 7 Evasion feature being able to avoid all damage on a successful save.

I haven't played BG1/2 but 5e does have resistance, but it's down to half damage always. So if you had resistance to fire and took a Scorching Ray for 10 damage, with your resistance you'd only take 5.

Conversely if you had resistance to fire again, and you succeeded on a save VS a Fireball for 20 damage, you'd first halve it by the save to 10, then halve again with the resistance for 5.

At least, that's my understanding of how it works.

[Fett]

dani0805 eredeti hozzászólása:

Daliena eredeti hozzászólása:

Okay, but like.. Certain spells have always had hit rolls instead of saving throws. Scorching Ray comes to mind as one. No-one has ever rolled a saving throw VS Scorching Ray. It's always been the caster rolling to hit their target. So what, should they just auto-hit, and thus make any damage spell that requires a saving throw highly unattractive by comparison?

The problem comes from Larian house rules and abundance of explosives making spells a lot less relevant, damage output is higher than in vanilla D&D 5e so spells which are tuned for normal 5e feel weak.

Cantrips on the other hand are the main tool of spell caster it seems and have been pushed higher with surface effects. Spell are more or less panic buttons and cc tools.

That's how it works early game, at least for comparison to earlier BG titles. I don't know how this one works (5e for that matter) but past titles certain spells scales with level, for example you get more Magic Missiles for every two or three levels up to a certain point, and Fireball did 5d6 + 1d6 per level up to a certain level. But yeah, i think this might have been a way for them to help early characters that are generally weak in the beginning to compete. Pretty good actually.