I think "Sacred Flame" cantrip might be glitching/always passes saving throw

[Lackluster]

This isn't another "my RNG is unfair" post.

I've cast sacred flame 10-15 times, and it's always missed. I've built a cleric and used Shadowheart. It's literally never hit.

I understand the mercurial nature of dice, insofar as anyone can, but I'm beginning to feel like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern here.

https://youtu.be/3YHHHEg3ioc

Let's all assume the "let me explain probability to you" posts are a given. Has anyone started to suspect a problem here?

EDIT: After posting this I loaded a save and did a fight several times. After 9 attempts I finally got a hit. The tool-tip says 50 percent. I'm going to start writing down every attempt.

EDIT: I spent some time writing it down. I cast it 24 times, and hit 7 times. The tooltip says 50%, but with such a small sample size that's well within reason. Before I started writing down I didn't recall it EVER hitting, so chalk this one up to confirmation bias.

[Mosey]

It's a save or nothing spell vs. a dex save, and lots and lots of things have pretty good DEX. Often 14 or better, so they're getting at least a +2 most of the time versus, a what, DC 14 cantrip? Yuck. And that's not even including prof. bonuses from enemies, assuming they get them.

Just saying, it's going to fail a lot. Best use is versus things that don't get a dex save from prone, held, or creatures with really terrible DEX. Examine is your friend.

There are also spells that give things disadvantage on dex checks, which helps. Assuming you have someone using such a spell, that is.

And I've had the spell work many, many times without doing any of the above. So it does work. It's just not a great spell.

[bf1tz.psu]

it's too easy to save against because of stat distribution of enemies... it does hit... it also does not require line of sight. I skip this cantrip all together. Other cantrips are far more useful.

[BW022]

As others have said, it is a dexterity save or nothing spell only doing 1d8 damage. Shadowheart has a 16 wisdom, so her DC is only 13. A goblin likely has high dexterity for something like +3, so likely only a 45% chance of actually affecting one -- probably lower more like 30% if a higher dexterity or good dexterity saves.

Your cleric should definitely be using a ranged weapon (light crossbow or shortbow) for ranged attacks. The only times you might want to use sacred flame are:
* Creatures in concealment which can't be targeted by your ranged weapon attacks.
* Creatures you need to range attack which you have disadvantage against.
* Creatures immune or resistant to piercing damage.
* Creatures with extremely high ACs which don't have high dexterities -- an armored ogre, giant, or something.
* The creature is held, asleep, or otherwise will automatically fail its dexterity save. This said, other spells might do a lot more damage.

At 5th-level, the spell will do 2d8 damage. It might be better in more cases just for shear damage.

[Indure]

If you want to test to see if sacred flame is bugged, knock an enemy prone and see if sacred flame hits it, since it's hit chance is 100%

[TheBlueFox]

The way that proficiency bonuses work in this game is that the higher level you go, the wider the gap between what you're GOOD at and what you're BAD at is.

Your attack improves with your level, due to a scaling bonus called your "Proficiency bonus". It starts at +2 and goes up at levels 5, 9, 13, 17. You get harder and harder to resist as you get stronger.

Due to the way Saving throws work, you are MORE likely to land attacks targeting saving throws than you are attacking armor class, because you can often choose which saving throw to target and can exploit an enemy weakness.

The other side of this is that Spells and effects that target saving throws can never Critically Hit.

Granted the majority of enemies in BG3 are Goblins, Worgs, Gnolls, and Humanoids. Most of them carry Good to Fair Dexterity saves.


** My recommendation is to pair Sacred Flame with a Grease bottle. Prone enemies are guaranteed hits, and sacred flame is NOT FIRE DAMAGE, so it will not set grease on fire! **

[Indure]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

The way that proficiency bonuses work in this game is that the higher level you go, the wider the gap between what you're GOOD at and what you're BAD at is.

Your attack improves with your level, due to a scaling bonus called your "Proficiency bonus". It starts at +2 and goes up at levels 5, 9, 13, 17. You get harder and harder to resist as you get stronger.

Due to the way Saving throws work, you are MORE likely to land attacks targeting saving throws than you are attacking armor class, because you can often choose which saving throw to target and can exploit an enemy weakness.

The other side of this is that Spells and effects that target saving throws can never Critically Hit.

Granted the majority of enemies in BG3 are Goblins, Worgs, Gnolls, and Humanoids. Most of them carry Good to Fair Dexterity saves.


** My recommendation is to pair Sacred Flame with a Grease bottle. Prone enemies are guaranteed hits, and sacred flame is NOT FIRE DAMAGE, so it will not set grease on fire! **

You forgot to mention that spells also can't benefit from advantage which is very easy to get in this game. So attacks have a bonus 5-20% increase chance to hit, more often than not.

[TheBlueFox]

Originally posted by Indure:

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

The way that proficiency bonuses work in this game is that the higher level you go, the wider the gap between what you're GOOD at and what you're BAD at is.

Your attack improves with your level, due to a scaling bonus called your "Proficiency bonus". It starts at +2 and goes up at levels 5, 9, 13, 17. You get harder and harder to resist as you get stronger.

Due to the way Saving throws work, you are MORE likely to land attacks targeting saving throws than you are attacking armor class, because you can often choose which saving throw to target and can exploit an enemy weakness.

The other side of this is that Spells and effects that target saving throws can never Critically Hit.

Granted the majority of enemies in BG3 are Goblins, Worgs, Gnolls, and Humanoids. Most of them carry Good to Fair Dexterity saves.


** My recommendation is to pair Sacred Flame with a Grease bottle. Prone enemies are guaranteed hits, and sacred flame is NOT FIRE DAMAGE, so it will not set grease on fire! **

You forgot to mention that spells also can't benefit from advantage which is very easy to get in this game. So attacks have a bonus 5-20% increase chance to hit, more often than not.

Well... I mean yes, but also no?

Advantage isn't SUPPOSED to be as easy as walking around to someone's rear or standing on a box... it kinda does throw a little wrench into the works there.

Advantage is supposed to be a smidge harder to get. So... yeah! But also.. Ehhh...

[TripSin]

I didn't know that sacred flame doesn't require line of sight and has advantage on prone characters. Is that described anywhere in game?

[TheBlueFox]

Originally posted by TripSin:

I didn't know that sacred flame doesn't require line of sight and has advantage on prone characters. Is that described anywhere in game?

It does require line of sight, but it ignores cover.

What I mean is, if you can target someone you can hit them, it doesn't matter if you can't draw a line because there's a barrel in the way or a ledge that would, say, block an arrow.

And it's not "Advantage" it's actually a guaranteed hit. It does say that it is a "Dexterity save", but the game doesn't tell you that "Prone Characters automatically fail all dexterity saves"

[Goose]

Originally posted by Lackluster:

This isn't another "my RNG is unfair" post.

I've cast sacred flame 10-15 times, and it's always missed. I've built a cleric and used Shadowheart. It's literally never hit.

I understand the mercurial nature of dice, insofar as anyone can, but I'm beginning to feel like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern here.

https://youtu.be/3YHHHEg3ioc

Let's all assume the "let me explain probability to you" posts are a given. Has anyone started to suspect a problem here?

EDIT: After posting this I loaded a save and did a fight several times. After 9 attempts I finally got a hit. The tool-tip says 50 percent. I'm going to start writing down every attempt.

It does this in the tabletop game too. It's a running joke in my group lol

[Indure]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Originally posted by TripSin:

I didn't know that sacred flame doesn't require line of sight and has advantage on prone characters. Is that described anywhere in game?

It does require line of sight, but it ignores cover.

What I mean is, if you can target someone you can hit them, it doesn't matter if you can't draw a line because there's a barrel in the way or a ledge that would, say, block an arrow.

And it's not "Advantage" it's actually a guaranteed hit. It does say that it is a "Dexterity save", but the game doesn't tell you that "Prone Characters automatically fail all dexterity saves"

It doesn't require line of sight. I've cast it through walls before.

[CDI Mario]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Originally posted by TripSin:

I didn't know that sacred flame doesn't require line of sight and has advantage on prone characters. Is that described anywhere in game?

It does require line of sight, but it ignores cover.

What I mean is, if you can target someone you can hit them, it doesn't matter if you can't draw a line because there's a barrel in the way or a ledge that would, say, block an arrow.

And it's not "Advantage" it's actually a guaranteed hit. It does say that it is a "Dexterity save", but the game doesn't tell you that "Prone Characters automatically fail all dexterity saves"

the game in its early access expects you to know some things about dnd. There will likely be a part added later to show a bunch of useful mechanics like they did with the underbelly of the ship in Divinity original sin 2

[Lackluster]

I spent some time writing it down. I cast it 24 times, and hit 7 times. The tooltip says 50%, but with such a small sample size that's well within reason. Before I started writing down I didn't recall it EVER hitting, so chalk this one up to confirmation bias.

[bf1tz.psu]

Originally posted by Lackluster:

I spent some time writing it down. I cast it 24 times, and hit 7 times. The tooltip says 50%, but with such a small sample size that's well within reason. Before I started writing down I didn't recall it EVER hitting, so chalk this one up to confirmation bias.

The tooltip shows rough percentages and is a poor choice for accurately representing actual probability... it isn't a simple percentage... you are rolling a 20 sided die and adding/subtracting modifiers/penalties against your opponents rolls/modifiers/etc... if you roll a 1 no amount of modifiers is going to not make it a fail... unless you have particular traits that specify rerolls for 1s.... same goes for rolling a 20 and so on...

you need to play to the mechanics... this isn't normal hack n slash 99% hit chance shenanigans where your opponent doesn't have resistances/defenses/saves and rolls are mostly only for damage done. inversely, enemies have the same struggle against you should you play appropriately.

[Indure]

Originally posted by bf1tz.psu:

Originally posted by Lackluster:

I spent some time writing it down. I cast it 24 times, and hit 7 times. The tooltip says 50%, but with such a small sample size that's well within reason. Before I started writing down I didn't recall it EVER hitting, so chalk this one up to confirmation bias.

The tooltip shows rough percentages and is a poor choice for accurately representing actual probability... it isn't a simple percentage... you are rolling a 20 sided die and adding/subtracting modifiers/penalties against your opponents rolls/modifiers/etc... if you roll a 1 no amount of modifiers is going to not make it a fail... unless you have particular traits that specify rerolls for 1s.... same goes for rolling a 20 and so on...

How is the percentage shown a "rough" percentage and why would is poorly represent that actual probability (except for rounding errors)?