Shadowheart stat distribution worse than ever. Reasoning and proposed fix!

[Shinn]

So clerics are one of the most versatile classes in 5e due to the fact that the many different domains offer different proficiencies and bonuses. This means that there is no one stat distribution that works for all clerics. Trickster clerics such as shadowheart ar proficient with medium armor and simple weapons. This means that her best melee weapon that she has access to is the mace which is 1d6+str or if you look at the PHB (player's handbook 5e) the spear which can be used one handed in 5e which also does 1d6+str. If we look at Shadowhearts DPR (damage per round) with her different options in the current build this is what we get. Ranked from worst (top) to best (bottom).

Mace: 1d6+0 (3.5 dpr)
Sacred Flame: 1d8 (4.5 dpr)
Dagger: 1d4+2 (4.5 dpr)
Light Crossbow: 1d8+2 (6.5 dpr)

I very much doubt that the intention of this change was to make daggers better for Shadowheart than the mace. The following will show Shadowheart't current stats (including her racial bonus) in the new patch (left) with my proposed stats for her (right)

STR 10 (14)
DEX 15 (14)
CON 13 (13)
INT 8 (8)
WIS 16 (16)
CHA 14 (10)

This fixes a few problems. First of all any points in dexterity past 14 is just a waste since she is limited to medium armor she should maintain a +2 modifier in her dexterity. I've dropped her charisma from 14 to 10 since, lets be honest, she is not charismatic. Also she gains no real benifit to having a higher charisma. She isn't proficient in any charisma based abilities and shes also not your main character at the moment so you probably aren't spearheading conversation checks with her. Now lastly we can drop those points we removed into strength and bring her back to a hearty +2 modifier. Giving her jump distance, carrying capacity, and her decent mace attack back, along with the ability to pick up heavy armor proficiency later from a feat.

Its very important for Shadowheart to have a decent melee ability. My reasoning for this is that in the PHB, trickery domain clerics get an ability at level 8 called Divine Strike. This ability gives the cleric an extra 1d8 poison damage on their attacks with a melee weapon. This is assuming of course that this ability stays the same when implemented into BG3.

Two other solutions I have to this problem include having a "Respec" ability similar to the mirror in DOS2. Or secondly in the very least allow companions to be customized when they are recruited.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by Shinn Ryusei:

So clerics are one of the most versatile classes in 5e due to the fact that the many different domains offer different proficiencies and bonuses. This means that there is no one stat distribution that works for all clerics. Trickster clerics such as shadowheart ar proficient with medium armor and simple weapons. This means that her best melee weapon that she has access to is the mace which is 1d6+str or if you look at the PHB (player's handbook 5e) the spear which can be used one handed in 5e which also does 1d6+str. If we look at Shadowhearts DPR (damage per round) with her different options in the current build this is what we get. Ranked from worst (top) to best (bottom).

Mace: 1d6+0 (3.5 dpr)
Sacred Flame: 1d8 (4.5 dpr)
Dagger: 1d4+2 (4.5 dpr)
Light Crossbow: 1d8+2 (6.5 dpr)

I very much doubt that the intention of this change was to make daggers better for Shadowheart than the mace. The following will show Shadowheart't current stats (including her racial bonus) in the new patch (left) with my proposed stats for her (right)

STR 10 (14)
DEX 15 (14)
CON 13 (13)
INT 8 (8)
WIS 16 (16)
CHA 14 (10)

This fixes a few problems. First of all any points in dexterity past 14 is just a waste since she is limited to medium armor she should maintain a +2 modifier in her dexterity. I've dropped her charisma from 14 to 10 since, lets be honest, she is not charismatic. Also she gains no real benifit to having a higher charisma. She isn't proficient in any charisma based abilities and shes also not your main character at the moment so you probably aren't spearheading conversation checks with her. Now lastly we can drop those points we removed into strength and bring her back to a hearty +2 modifier. Giving her jump distance, carrying capacity, and her decent mace attack back, along with the ability to pick up heavy armor proficiency later from a feat.

Its very important for Shadowheart to have a decent melee ability. My reasoning for this is that in the PHB, trickery domain clerics get an ability at level 8 called Divine Strike. This ability gives the cleric an extra 1d8 poison damage on their attacks with a melee weapon. This is assuming of course that this ability stays the same when implemented into BG3.

Two other solutions I have to this problem include having a "Respec" ability similar to the mirror in DOS2. Or secondly in the very least allow companions to be customized when they are recruited.

um - shortswords, a light simple finesse weapon, do 1d6 damage, and are plentiful to acquire. The change to SH fits her background and her domain, The only thing I would change is the dex from 15 to 14, and put her con to 14 from 13 - she is a cleric, and a lot of their spells are concentration based.

[Alilatias]

I feel like the change to Shadowheart's stats should have come after the remaining companions were released. As it currently is, we're now pigeon-holed into using Lae'zel or creating a high strength main character if we want someone with a strength focus in the party.

(I assume the eventual Druid and Paladin party members would be our alternatives for high strength characters in the future.)

[Shinn]

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

Originally posted by Shinn Ryusei:

So clerics are one of the most versatile classes in 5e due to the fact that the many different domains offer different proficiencies and bonuses. This means that there is no one stat distribution that works for all clerics. Trickster clerics such as shadowheart ar proficient with medium armor and simple weapons. This means that her best melee weapon that she has access to is the mace which is 1d6+str or if you look at the PHB (player's handbook 5e) the spear which can be used one handed in 5e which also does 1d6+str. If we look at Shadowhearts DPR (damage per round) with her different options in the current build this is what we get. Ranked from worst (top) to best (bottom).

Mace: 1d6+0 (3.5 dpr)
Sacred Flame: 1d8 (4.5 dpr)
Dagger: 1d4+2 (4.5 dpr)
Light Crossbow: 1d8+2 (6.5 dpr)

I very much doubt that the intention of this change was to make daggers better for Shadowheart than the mace. The following will show Shadowheart't current stats (including her racial bonus) in the new patch (left) with my proposed stats for her (right)

STR 10 (14)
DEX 15 (14)
CON 13 (13)
INT 8 (8)
WIS 16 (16)
CHA 14 (10)

This fixes a few problems. First of all any points in dexterity past 14 is just a waste since she is limited to medium armor she should maintain a +2 modifier in her dexterity. I've dropped her charisma from 14 to 10 since, lets be honest, she is not charismatic. Also she gains no real benifit to having a higher charisma. She isn't proficient in any charisma based abilities and shes also not your main character at the moment so you probably aren't spearheading conversation checks with her. Now lastly we can drop those points we removed into strength and bring her back to a hearty +2 modifier. Giving her jump distance, carrying capacity, and her decent mace attack back, along with the ability to pick up heavy armor proficiency later from a feat.

Its very important for Shadowheart to have a decent melee ability. My reasoning for this is that in the PHB, trickery domain clerics get an ability at level 8 called Divine Strike. This ability gives the cleric an extra 1d8 poison damage on their attacks with a melee weapon. This is assuming of course that this ability stays the same when implemented into BG3.

Two other solutions I have to this problem include having a "Respec" ability similar to the mirror in DOS2. Or secondly in the very least allow companions to be customized when they are recruited.

um - shortswords, a light simple finesse weapon, do 1d6 damage, and are plentiful to acquire. The change to SH fits her background and her domain, The only thing I would change is the dex from 15 to 14, and put her con to 14 from 13 - she is a cleric, and a lot of their spells are concentration based.

Sorry short swords are martial weapons and Shadowheart doesn't have proficiency in them.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by Shinn Ryusei:

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

um - shortswords, a light simple finesse weapon, do 1d6 damage, and are plentiful to acquire. The change to SH fits her background and her domain, The only thing I would change is the dex from 15 to 14, and put her con to 14 from 13 - she is a cleric, and a lot of their spells are concentration based.

Sorry short swords are martial weapons and Shadowheart doesn't have proficiency in them.

You are absolutely correct - I stand corrected.

[Metallicus]

It makes sense that a trickery domain Priest should have a rapier or short sword as a weapon proficiency. Maybe just giver her some sort of rogue like weapon proficiency and problem is solved.

[Shinn]

Originally posted by Metallicus:

It makes sense that a trickery domain Priest should have a rapier or short sword as a weapon proficiency. Maybe just giver her some sort of rogue like weapon proficiency and problem is solved.

in tabletop 5e play it is actually pretty popular for trickery clerics to multiclass into rogue for a few levels.

[Jack]

Just want to tune in with the fact that they will never give followers perfect stats.

101 game design not to make them equal or stronger than the protagonist.
Also, i assume Larian wants them "open ended" so the "meta" build is not the only option as a "valid" build.

That said, im not agenst changes or suggestions. Just don't expect Larian to follow them to the letter, as I assume followers will allways be "inperfect" for good resons.

[Soft Lockpick]

Originally posted by Draconiya:

Originally posted by Siegdarth:

Dude. She is a priest of the Trickery domain that worships Shar.
It makes more sense she being dexterous/wise/charismatic than having high STR. She doesn't have any proficiency in athletics to make use of STR.
Just give her a Shortsword/Shield or get weapon master feat and give her a scimitar and enjoy the character.

Dex is not only for AC but also for saves, initiative and ability tests.
Chain Shirt does'nt give disvantage on sneaking so you can better position her or enter stealth before or during a fight.
I'm toally ok for her ranged and sneaky nature since most buff requires concentration and the cleric hp is not that great anyway,

Precisely. If you're slapping things in melee with your trickery cleric you're doing it wrong.

And high charisma can mean deceptiveness just as easily as personability.

But she's not good at deception either. She makes it so obvious she's hiding something it's pathetic.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

But she's not good at deception either. She makes it so obvious she's hiding something it's pathetic.

+1

Shadowheart having any Charisma score past minimum just completely clashes with her presentation, she's rude, snide, defensive and can be read by a book by anyone with basic social skills (provided they even want to bother).

How that translates to 14 CHA I'll never know.

[DnD Detective]

They use the standard array for making these companions (15,14,13,12,10, and 8) and then redistribute those according to need and add in any racial bonus. Shadowheart is a half elf so she gets +1 to two skills and then +2 to charisma.

The best way they could make Shadowheart would instead be

14 Str
12 Dex
14 Con (+1 racial bonus brings 13 to 14)
10 Int
16 Wis (+1 racial bonus brings 15 to 16)
10 Chr (+2 racial bonus brings 8 to 10)

This would

- Let her get a bonus to both her strength and dexterity weapons (the only finesse weapon she could otherwise use are daggers)
- Free her up to optionally pick up the heavily armoured feat in order to use any heavy armor
- Prevent any of her skills from having negative penalties
- Still give a significant dexterity improvement over her initial stats.
- Allow her to be a strength alternative to Lae'val (currently Lae'val is the only companion with good strength).

With her having 10 strength now she can't effectively use most of the melee weapons clerics use. Ironically, while this gave her better AC, she's now better off being used at range with a light crossbow (where she is probably less likely to get hit to begin with).

[Auburn2]

I think the new scores make sense from a story perspective, but I am not a fan. I typyically used her as a front line fighter type, especially with how effective push is in the game. Changing this makes it almost necessary to take LaZel if you don't have a martial PC.

[Auburn2]

Originally posted by Jack:

Just want to tune in with the fact that they will never give followers perfect stats.

101 game design not to make them equal or stronger than the protagonist.
Also, i assume Larian wants them "open ended" so the "meta" build is not the only option as a "valid" build.

That said, im not agenst changes or suggestions. Just don't expect Larian to follow them to the letter, as I assume followers will allways be "inperfect" for good resons.

In NWN2 the companions for the most part had stats better than the protagonist. BG1 and BG2 had some high stat companions to although you could always reroll in those games until yours were higher.

[BW022]

Shinn,

I don't expect NPCs in my PnP games to be ultra-optimized. While the original Shadowheart build was poor -- to the point you could wonder how she became a trickery cleric -- I don't expect her to be as optimized as a PC.

I also suspect when released, most folks will simply created their own party and can thus optimize it for their personal tastes.

Originally posted by Shinn Ryusei:

First of all any points in dexterity past 14 is just a waste since she is limited to medium armor she should maintain a +2 modifier in her dexterity.

You don't have to medium armor build her. Simply go light armor. The best medium armor in BG3 is the Gith breastplate. Yes, this is 15+2(dex), but it imposes disadvantage on her stealth checks and weights a lot. Best stealth armor is chainshirt which is only AC 13+2(dex). Far better to just go light armor (mage armor or chainshirt+1) and increase your dexterity to 16 (and likely constitution to 14) at 4th. However, even if you kept medium armor, you are still better off with a 16 dexterity. Yes, you don't get the extra point of AC, but... you still get the +1 to attacks and damage in both melee and ranged, and stealth checks.

Having both a high strength and dexterity is generally really counter productive in 5e.

Now lastly we can drop those points we removed into strength and bring her back to a hearty +2 modifier. Giving her jump distance, carrying capacity, and her decent mace attack back, along with the ability to pick up heavy armor proficiency later from a feat.

This is pointless. Forget the mace, use a shortsword 1d6+2 (dex) or likely +3 when you hit 4th. Done. Jump distance is pretty minor and carrying capacity is solved merely by not having her weight medium armor.

Its very important for Shadowheart to have a decent melee ability. My reasoning for this is that in the PHB, trickery domain clerics get an ability at level 8 called Divine Strike. This ability gives the cleric an extra 1d8 poison damage on their attacks with a melee weapon. This is assuming of course that this ability stays the same when implemented into BG3.

I don't see any need for it. Divine strike works fine with ranged weapons. With a 13 constitution (even raised to 14 at 4th) and likely holding up concentration spells, I see no need why she needs to be in melee. Far better having in with ranged using a crossbow. If she must go into melee (some off tanking roll), dex build is fine. She'd have mirror image up and probably just be spamming the dodge action (if implemented) and healing word at that point.

If you want a strength based melee build... I wouldn't be wasting my time with a half-elf trickery cleric. That is screaming dexterity. Give her shortsword, crossbow, bump her dex and con at 4th and rely on stealth, range, and keeping her concentration spells and abilities up.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Soft Lockpick:

Originally posted by Draconiya:

Precisely. If you're slapping things in melee with your trickery cleric you're doing it wrong.

And high charisma can mean deceptiveness just as easily as personability.

But she's not good at deception either. She makes it so obvious she's hiding something it's pathetic.

Charisma also has another meaning. It can mean 'gift' or 'divine favour', in the sense of an exceptional natural ability. Sorcerers for example do not need to have a charismatic personality.

[adamcatfish]

I had the same initial response, that the build stats broke her, but that was because I would give her splint mail and use her as a front line defender. After some thought, I realized that with her story and domain her new stats actually make more sense.
That being said, the ability to customize the characters would be very cool. I know this could be "fixed" by creating your own party, but then the built in story arcs and side quests would be missing, which I am looking forward to playing.