about larian reducing surfaces

[epic meow]

they did announce they were going to "dramatically reduce surfaces" in the game in the gazette due to criticism that the game was too much like divinity and not baldurs gate : /

as of now cantrips no longer produce surfaces. which isn't the end of the world but imo it's a pretty bad direction for the game that's less interesting. i hope they don't continue down this path because too many goblin bandits are chanting "NOT REAL BALDURS GATE" or whatever.

imo i'm worried they listen too much to online arguments. the most vocal opinions are definitely not always the best when it comes to the internet.

[deadlock gamer]

Publicado originalmente por Dragon Master:

Publicado originalmente por Aria Athena:

and with ease

Yes. Most of them. If not all. I don't even use stealth cheese or barrels. I don't even notice barrels I use them so little.

The enemies do though

[Nikanuur]

Publicado originalmente por Baron:

Well, this sort of banter certainly solidifies my view. It seems to indicate they have been doing a bit too much Larian nonsense and not enough actual encounter design - removing a lot of surfaces (going by DIV:OS2 levels) will do them many favours....God I hope. Does anyone know if they using actual bestiary/monster manual enemies or have they done something dumb there? IE if they still use any of the old mechanics for shielding or even enemy builds....surely they can see that will scupper the ruleset. Hope WotC is keeping an eye on it (who am I kidding course they are)

Exactly my point. Quantity over quality of approaches never works out. Sad panda is sad.

[KeepCleaving]

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Publicado originalmente por Baron:

Well, this sort of banter certainly solidifies my view. It seems to indicate they have been doing a bit too much Larian nonsense and not enough actual encounter design - removing a lot of surfaces (going by DIV:OS2 levels) will do them many favours....God I hope. Does anyone know if they using actual bestiary/monster manual enemies or have they done something dumb there? IE if they still use any of the old mechanics for shielding or even enemy builds....surely they can see that will scupper the ruleset. Hope WotC is keeping an eye on it (who am I kidding course they are)

Exactly my point. Quantity over quality of approaches never works out. Sad panda is sad.

pretty much 80% of renown Dungeon Masters use environmental surfaces and interactions. The Dungeon Master's guide even suggests doing such.
You people are dumming down the game..
Imagine game creators laboring over getting light to scatter on their human npc's skin only to have some winer complain that it's "too realistic".

[Starwight/ttv]

Publicado originalmente por KeepCleaving:

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Exactly my point. Quantity over quality of approaches never works out. Sad panda is sad.

pretty much 80% of renown Dungeon Masters use environmental surfaces and interactions. The Dungeon Master's guide even suggests doing such.
You people are dumming down the game..
Imagine game creators laboring over getting light to scatter on their human npc's skin only to have some winer complain that it's "too realistic".

I agree on this. Most DMs do (or should) be using environmental advantages and allow players and enemies alike to exploit them. It's just part of DnD

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

Publicado originalmente por sevensided:

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Why is everyone saying different things...
Anyway, thank you for the answer. If this is the case, I am in despair for this hamfisted design. Back to modding scene then.

Ignatius is exaggerating.

The spells that create surfaces are Chromatic Orb, Web, Grease, Melf's Acid Arrow, Create Water, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, and Sleet Storm. That's out of 134 spells in the game so far.
Only two of those, Chromatic Orb and Acid Arrow, have been modified by Larian to produce ground effects. The others all are supposed to create ground effects.

I'm describing exactly what occurs in-game. And there is certainly more spells that creates surfaces, actually two surfaces, since surfaces change into other surfaces at the end of their duration. Not to mention, items create surfaces as well. Hell, healing potions create 'healing surfaces', for god's sake. Cluster your party in a ten foot square and heal or haste them all, lol.

But, in the end, the bigger problem is these surface interactions make it difficult to use your class given abilities. Do you want to use Grease, Web, Entangle, etc. as methods of control on the battlefield? Well, you better watch out for ash, fire, or the myriad of torches and candelabras in the game. Otherwise, they'll immediately turn into a fire surface, the an ash surface. So, instead of imposing prone or restrain on an area, you've actually done a piddly amount of fire damage.

And you've got to have all these torches, candles, and candelabras around, since you need to dip your Longsword in them to make a flaming Longsword. I admit, it is funny in a way. But, after a while, the joke isn't funny anymore, it's just annoying.

[sevensided]

Publicado originalmente por IgnatiusJ.Reilly:

Publicado originalmente por sevensided:

Ignatius is exaggerating.

The spells that create surfaces are Chromatic Orb, Web, Grease, Melf's Acid Arrow, Create Water, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, and Sleet Storm. That's out of 134 spells in the game so far.
Only two of those, Chromatic Orb and Acid Arrow, have been modified by Larian to produce ground effects. The others all are supposed to create ground effects.

I'm describing exactly what occurs in-game. And there is certainly more spells that creates surfaces,

Nope. Those are the spells in game that make surfaces.

Not to mention, items create surfaces as well. Hell, healing potions create 'healing surfaces', for god's sake. Cluster your party in a ten foot square and heal or haste them all, lol.

Indeed, that's one of those GM house rules Larian has elected to put into the game, one that I personally (and also, as you seem to not like them) do not agree with. But Larian is the GM, though for healing and haste its more of a splash effect than creating a surface. Still, a silly implementation by Larian.

But, in the end, the bigger problem is these surface interactions make it difficult to use your class given abilities. Do you want to use Grease, Web, Entangle, etc. as methods of control on the battlefield? Well, you better watch out for ash, fire, or the myriad of torches and candelabras in the game. Otherwise, they'll immediately turn into a fire surface, the an ash surface. So, instead of imposing prone or restrain on an area, you've actually done a piddly amount of fire damage.

This is an actual, legit issue you have playing the game? Not issue as in you disagree with it being implemented, but issue as in you find it difficult to utilise grease or web in fights because of light sources? I guess mileages may vary, but this hasn't been a problem I've encountered.

And what other class abilities would these surfaces confound other than the placement of a few spells?

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

We've barely scratched the surface(s).

[Hobocop]

Publicado originalmente por sevensided:

This is an actual, legit issue you have playing the game? Not issue as in you disagree with it being implemented, but issue as in you find it difficult to utilise grease or web in fights because of light sources? I guess mileages may vary, but this hasn't been a problem I've encountered.

And what other class abilities would these surfaces confound other than the placement of a few spells?

I would hope Web does that because it's literally written into the spell's description.

Entangle and Grease aren't large enough for that to be a prevalent issue, tbh, and you've all the time in the world to place them exactly where you want.

[Baron]

All that fluff is super nice additions and options, sure. Basing the whole game strategy about manipulation of surfaces is what dumbs things down, laughably so in the face of what is literally the most popular RPG ruleset on the planet. If anything they design takes away from or obfuscates things like class skills and utility, the balance is too skewed Larian. They have the IP because they can do awesome stuff we always used to be able to in TT, and I hope they use it. It just shouldnt be the focus.

And yes, the spells designed to create surfaces are perfect for Larian. Easy unbalanced, though - and Larian has a tendency to design puzzles, not encounters for a party of adventurers, so to speak.

It is their brand and flavour but it can go two ways. With humility: It enhances DnD rulesets in a very nice way. With Arrogance: It supercedes all the DnD mechanics and replaces mages with barrels, for example. Or fighters with stealth. Or agility for more inventory space and strength to fit said barrels. All of that sucks.

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

Publicado originalmente por Hobocop:

Publicado originalmente por sevensided:

This is an actual, legit issue you have playing the game? Not issue as in you disagree with it being implemented, but issue as in you find it difficult to utilise grease or web in fights because of light sources? I guess mileages may vary, but this hasn't been a problem I've encountered.

And what other class abilities would these surfaces confound other than the placement of a few spells?

I would hope Web does that because it's literally written into the spell's description.

Entangle and Grease aren't large enough for that to be a prevalent issue, tbh, and you've all the time in the world to place them exactly where you want.

You're right, Web is flammable. If set afire, it burns at a rate of one 5 ft. square per turn. But that's not what is happening here, is it? In BG3, it explodes in a fiery conflagration, instantly, doing damage and ultimately turning into an ash surface. An ash surface that's ready to set something else on fire.

[Nikanuur]

Publicado originalmente por KeepCleaving:

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Exactly my point. Quantity over quality of approaches never works out. Sad panda is sad.

pretty much 80% of renown Dungeon Masters use environmental surfaces and interactions. The Dungeon Master's guide even suggests doing such.
You people are dumming down the game..
Imagine game creators laboring over getting light to scatter on their human npc's skin only to have some winer complain that it's "too realistic".

Use it, yes, great - I agree. Search for it. Prepared for it. Awesome.
Exorbitantly have it nearly everywhere and everytime anything slightly related to elemental damage happens - no, not at all.
That is what's actually dumbing down a game.

[Hobocop]

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Use it, yes, great - I agree. Exorbitantly have it nearly everywhere and everytime anything slightly related to elemental damage happens, no. That is what's actually dumbing down the game.

I'm failing to see how making the environment be a bit more than a fancy backdrop would do that.

And no, what you claim is not what happens in the current build of BG3.

[macdaddymario]

Yeah. Gonna need a mod to fix what Larian broke here. Clearly a bad call. People happy about it seem to think their opinions are more valid than others, to echo some people making the same claim from the other side of the fence.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Publicado originalmente por Hobocop:

Publicado originalmente por Nikanuur:

Use it, yes, great - I agree. Exorbitantly have it nearly everywhere and everytime anything slightly related to elemental damage happens, no. That is what's actually dumbing down the game.

I'm failing to see how making the environment be a bit more than a fancy backdrop would do that.

And no, what you claim is not what happens in the current build of BG3.

He's right though...

[epic meow]

maybe it was just mods but i do seem to recall there being weaker spells in divinity 2 that produced like a tiny patch of surface element on the ground. like a single tile. so it's enough for precision interactions and chain reactions but still not big enough as to spam surface gunk everywhere. i think that'd be a good compromise. still allows for interesting strategies and creative solutions.

i can't remember the original mail, it was a long time ago now. anyway i can agree with reducing surfaces from cantrips to distinguish the game from divinity 2 and have a different meta but i disagree with removing them entirely. you should have easy access to that game system, weaker spells could give weaker access but not NO access. y'know what i mean?

obviously i can say this because i love the elemental system. someone who does not would likely welcome the decrease. still, a better compromise would be to tune the surfaces down in lower levels rather than remove them entirely from large amounts of interactions. imo