DND ruleset unfit for computer games?

[CeeRo]

So far the game is a massive downgrade from Divinity, there's no flow in the gameplay with needing to rest constantly, massive limitations on what you can do each round, and feeling extremely underpowered in battles.

Disappointing experience so far

[Brian Sirith]

So far not impressed either but we only get to level 4. Usually the fun starts when you unlock more options, feats, spells etc.

I think it’s a bit too early to say

[BW022]

And you assume it is the D&D ruleset which causes these?

I would try a game call Solasta. It also uses the 5e ruleset and it has no issues with needing to constantly rest or feeling underpowered in every battle. I would then compare the rules that BG3/Larian didn't implement, didn't implement correctly, their encounters, etc.

5e is a pretty solid and balanced system. It can work fine when implemented correctly in a computer game (see Solasta). BG3 is not 5e rules, or more specifically you don't have to 'mess up' enough 5e rules to really start seeing issues in game play. I'm not sure if they added bad rules and then made the encounters insanely difficult to make up for it, or they put in bad encounters and then tried changing the rules to make them doable.

[jonnin]

D&D rules are fine, even this 5e mess.
You are a lowbie, and you are underpowered. Not a godling in training as per the other game, you are an unskilled, poorly equipped and poorly trained adventurer.

Resting all the time? The only reason to rest is if you burn out spells frequently. Spells are a very limited resource in D&D and you can't spam them or use them each fight, esp at lower levels. 4e tried to 'fix' this (its not really broken) with 'per encounter' and 'per day' and such powers but it was a nightmare, very poorly done. So 5e went back to d&d roots of a few per day (per rest). Its worked for 40 years or more, but its different from what many are used to if you don't play this game system.

[Aria Athena]

You should rest often, or you will miss out in conversations. I rested only 2-3 in 30 hours and now some dialogs and events are out of order.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by BW022:

And you assume it is the D&D ruleset which causes these?

I would try a game call Solasta. It also uses the 5e ruleset and it has no issues with needing to constantly rest or feeling underpowered in every battle. I would then compare the rules that BG3/Larian didn't implement, didn't implement correctly, their encounters, etc.

5e is a pretty solid and balanced system. It can work fine when implemented correctly in a computer game (see Solasta). BG3 is not 5e rules, or more specifically you don't have to 'mess up' enough 5e rules to really start seeing issues in game play. I'm not sure if they added bad rules and then made the encounters insanely difficult to make up for it, or they put in bad encounters and then tried changing the rules to make them doable.

The way I see it is, Larian has a lot of cool ideas, and just threw them all into a room to see what happens. Kind of a like a beginner DM wants to try out new ideas or variations of the ruleset, but doesn't quite understand that too many new ideas and variations messes with the overall balance of the game. Sure they work, and yes you can get through the game, but it loses part of what makes things balanced.

Take their brewed variation of cantrips for example. This in and of itself is quite cool, I think it is one of the best homebrewed features of the game, as it makes cantrips meaningful and fun, but then they added grenades and arrows that replicate the effect of these cantrips, and made them abundant through exploits in ther other brewed features like long rests whenever you want, and savescumming. Then to make matters worse, they gave these items to the enemies, whose AI is to target lowest AC/HP first, so if they get initiative , then they unload everything at your party in order to kill the mage and healer if you take Gale and SH with you.

[CeeRo]

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

then they unload everything at your party in order to kill the mage and healer if you take Gale and SH with you.

Currently it's Wyll constantly getting targeted in our run, so I, being a cleric, have to burn all my spell slots to keep him alive, every time. Go rest, rince and repeat.

[Glice]

As a major fan of Divinity games, I actually like the structure that D&D rules give the Divinity styled game. I've played 220 hours and I think it is greater than the sum of its parts ( D:OS2 and D&D). Larian has done an awesome job of taking what I have always felt was sort of bland two-dimensional combat, and given it their own flair. But, what D&D rules are is time-tested, well thought out, adaptable, and logical. Some of the ideas behind combat and spells in D:OS2 were a bit poorly planned. So you have the proven system of D&D and the arcade style fun of Divinity. They improve each other.

[Kazmeister]

Originally posted by jonnin:

D&D rules are fine, even this 5e mess.
You are a lowbie, and you are underpowered. Not a godling in training as per the other game, you are an unskilled, poorly equipped and poorly trained adventurer.

Resting all the time? The only reason to rest is if you burn out spells frequently. Spells are a very limited resource in D&D and you can't spam them or use them each fight, esp at lower levels. 4e tried to 'fix' this (its not really broken) with 'per encounter' and 'per day' and such powers but it was a nightmare, very poorly done. So 5e went back to d&d roots of a few per day (per rest). Its worked for 40 years or more, but its different from what many are used to if you don't play this game system.

The only problem with this is the juiced up baddies. In an actual D&D campaign for entry-level characters, spellcasting quickly becomes OP, so you need limits... But this is based on fighting 1-2 HD enemies: Goblins with 5 hp that do 1d4 or 1d6 dmg, Skellies w/ 7hp that do 1d8 dmg. For those guys your mage can survive a few hits and even score a few kills with his stick, spells are reserved for when you really need them.

Knowing nothing about the game I rolled a Cleric because I usually play fighters and wanted to play something different. Now my party is Cleric, cleric, mage, thief. We get decimated by 28 hp lvl 3 goblins. We have to rely entirely on our offensive spells because we’re completely ineffective with our maces and staves, and then we can’t cast heals because if we turn off offensive magic we can’t win. So we suck down heal pots like mad.

It’s a bad system. Broken even.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by Glice:

As a major fan of Divinity games, I actually like the structure that D&D rules give the Divinity styled game. I've played 220 hours and I think it is greater than the sum of its parts ( D:OS2 and D&D). Larian has done an awesome job of taking what I have always felt was sort of bland two-dimensional combat, and given it their own flair. But, what D&D rules are is time-tested, well thought out, adaptable, and logical. Some of the ideas behind combat and spells in D:OS2 were a bit poorly planned. So you have the proven system of D&D and the arcade style fun of Divinity. They improve each other.

fair enough - but i think the argument comes down to is for some people, there is too much divinity in their D&D game, and for others there is too much D&D in their divinity game.

So - what does larian do in this instance - they want to keep their base from divinity, but they also want to expand and draw in a different demographic.

I have seen giant threads about barrels and surface effects, and giant threads about dice rolling for dialogue outcomes.

My opinion is, have a toggle or slider that lets the player decide how much divinity or D&D they want in their playthroughs, because lets be truthful here, everyone will start their game in their respective preferences, but will definitely experiment with the other options.

[BW022]

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

The way I see it is, Larian has a lot of cool ideas, and just threw them all into a room to see what happens. Kind of a like a beginner DM wants to try out new ideas or variations of the ruleset, but doesn't quite understand that too many new ideas and variations messes with the overall balance of the game. Sure they work, and yes you can get through the game, but it loses part of what makes things balanced.
...

We can only speculate on their motives. My guess is that these are left-overs from DOS2 which the engine supported and they were too invested in them to drop (or substantively sideline). Why is hide a bonus action? Because it existed in DOS2, they spend so might time getting it to work, and then simply couldn't accept that it would only be usable in combat for 1 out of 13 classes some of the time. Likewise, they had so invested in ground affects they simply couldn't accept that it would be used in 1 in 20 encounters. Or they spend so much time on their height mechanics they simply couldn't accept it wouldn't have any effect in combat. So hide is a bonus action, grenades fall like rain, and height always gives advantage/disadvantage... and balance is pretty much gone. Then someone discovered if those rules are used against 7hp goblins... it is boring, so the goblins now have 30hp. etc., etc.

It does feel like an inexperienced DM saying "look what I can do" but I suspect it is just not wanting all their DOS2 code to go into rarely used mode.

[BW022]

Originally posted by Kazmeister:

The only problem with this is the juiced up baddies. In an actual D&D campaign for entry-level characters, spellcasting quickly becomes OP, so you need limits... But this is based on fighting 1-2 HD enemies: Goblins with 5 hp that do 1d4 or 1d6 dmg, Skellies w/ 7hp that do 1d8 dmg. For those guys your mage can survive a few hits and even score a few kills with his stick, spells are reserved for when you really need them.

I'm not sure what came first, bad encounters or bad rules. I suspect the later than the bad encounters are just the easy attempt to fix the system rather than admit the rules aren't bad.

Rules have massive effect on the balance of encounters. We can tell since the same encounter can both be massively too hard and massively too easy just from using the "right" tactics. If you use hide + height + barrels, it is easy. If they use these against you... you are dead. Likewise, we could play the encounters in PnP with actual 5e rules and note that we always die... then flip it and play normal 5e encounters in PnP using the BG3 rules and notice that the (7hp) goblins always die.

I suspect the bad rules came as a result of trying to keep/show-case the DOS2 engine. Hey... we have height... how in 5e do we make that meaningful? Let's give advantage/disadvantage! Hey... we have these ground effects, but only a few spells in 5e give these. Let's keep the DOS2 grenades and arrows and make firebolt give a fire effect and ray of frost give a ground effect. etc. We spent all this time porting DOS2 stealth cones over and only a rogue can hide in combat? So... lets make hide a bonus action. Then they realized that the encounters were a cake walk and had to up them. And now we just end up with unbalanced encounters, classes, and strategies.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by BW022:

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

The way I see it is, Larian has a lot of cool ideas, and just threw them all into a room to see what happens. Kind of a like a beginner DM wants to try out new ideas or variations of the ruleset, but doesn't quite understand that too many new ideas and variations messes with the overall balance of the game. Sure they work, and yes you can get through the game, but it loses part of what makes things balanced.
...

We can only speculate on their motives. My guess is that these are left-overs from DOS2 which the engine supported and they were too invested in them to drop (or substantively sideline). Why is hide a bonus action? Because it existed in DOS2, they spend so might time getting it to work, and then simply couldn't accept that it would only be usable in combat for 1 out of 13 classes some of the time. Likewise, they had so invested in ground affects they simply couldn't accept that it would be used in 1 in 20 encounters. Or they spend so much time on their height mechanics they simply couldn't accept it wouldn't have any effect in combat. So hide is a bonus action, grenades fall like rain, and height always gives advantage/disadvantage... and balance is pretty much gone. Then someone discovered if those rules are used against 7hp goblins... it is boring, so the goblins now have 30hp. etc., etc.

It does feel like an inexperienced DM saying "look what I can do" but I suspect it is just not wanting all their DOS2 code to go into rarely used mode.

I do not think their DOS code will go into unused mode, they can always make a DOS 3, and it will probably sell well.

I think they want to branch and expand into a second signature game with D&D - kind of like what CDPR is trying to do with cyberpunk. I can bet my house that another witcher game will be made, just not with Geralt as the focus. They could do a game about eskiel, Lambert, Vesimir, or continue Ciri's story as a witcher.

[GreyMane]

You also have to realize this was a big beta-test. If you've never been a beta-tester, I can understand your resentment. If you have, you understand that this is not the final game. This is the problem with doing early release with ppl that are expecting a finished product. It is not, it is far from it. You're helping them. Nothing is wrong with D&D rules. BG3 doesn't even really follow them from a mechanics stand-point. It more "D&D like" than it is D&D. Give it a chance and don't judge a game by the beta. It's got a lot of potential. Let the potential have time to become...

[Arlen]

Originally posted by GreyMane:

You also have to realize this was a big beta-test. If you've never been a beta-tester, I can understand your resentment. If you have, you understand that this is not the final game. This is the problem with doing early release with ppl that are expecting a finished product. It is not, it is far from it. You're helping them. Nothing is wrong with D&D rules. BG3 doesn't even really follow them from a mechanics stand-point. It more "D&D like" than it is D&D. Give it a chance and don't judge a game by the beta. It's got a lot of potential. Let the potential have time to become...

absolutely this - which is why I am not trashing on the game, I point out what I think are flaws, which is what we are supposed to do, and also point out that it's not finished, we players are in a sandbox playing with all the toys they have come up with, and they have more then enough time to adjust and tweak things accordingly.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by CeeRo:

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

then they unload everything at your party in order to kill the mage and healer if you take Gale and SH with you.

Currently it's Wyll constantly getting targeted in our run, so I, being a cleric, have to burn all my spell slots to keep him alive, every time. Go rest, rince and repeat.

You're doing it wrong. Do you want details on why?