Game is Great, here are the problems.

[SpicyCrab]

1) Disengage should not be a bonus action. It's horrible, it feels horrible, it should not work that way. It really makes no sense that you can disengage from a melee opponent FOR FREE, walk away, and then just shoot them with an arrow. It's far and away the dumbest thing about the combat design.

2) Jump should not be a bonus action, for the same reasons.

3) Terrain effects last far too long, this was an annoyance in divinity and it really doesn't belong here. The amount of damage you can stack off of terrain effects feels completely inappropriate, especially because the way damage works in DnD it makes terrain effects THE BEST, because they can't miss. Bad design. Cannot just port over the terrain system from Divinity and cross your fingers, it makes no sense here. TONE IT DOWN.

Other than that, the game is excellent. As someone with 300+ hours of Baldurs Gate; this one Truly lives up to the Baldurs Gate license and is extremely impressive for an early access. The world in this game absolutely feels like Baldurs Gate, the stories are actually more complex with more decisions and more interaction with the characters. It's really impressive how many unique lines will trigger in response to your character's background and such. It's really incredibly well done.

For all the people that say this "feels nothing like Baldurs Gate"... all I can say is... when was the last time you played Baldurs Gate? Because this game feels a LOT like it.

For me... manyt of the things people are complaining about don't land;, but these three are important. Please fix.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by SpicyCrab:

Fact is that right now, an ogre could use its bonus action to disengage. Hell, he could smack you in the face with his giant hammer and then disengage and run away.

It's preposterous.

Gonna have to stop you right there before you fly off the deep end making unfounded assumptions.

I've yet to see any evidence through what I've played that Disengage is a blanket bonus action for anybody but the player characters (justified by it being an ability that the tadpole gives them) and their pets/followers and the usual suspects (goblins).

Never had any of the bandits in the ruins Disengage as a BA.

Never had any of the undead do it.

Never had any of the gnolls do it.

Never had any of the supplementary forces alongside the goblins (Bugbears, Worgs) do it.

Opportunity Attack seems to be having some issues with consistently triggering despite knowing that it should be available, so that may be contributing to the feeling that enemies are getting away scot free when they normally shouldn't be.

I do think it's a bit too available as a Disengage as is (once per short rest/combat would be more appropriate), but it's far from being a blanket change across the entire game.

And no, it doesn't make Misty Step 'useless'. With your average wizard's pitiful strength, they're not going to be able to consistently jump to higher ledges during combat safely. And forget about jumping from ground level to a rooftop if you're not a high Strength character with the Jump spell.

I've only ever seen gobbos use it and they don't always succeed the throw. There is nothing wrong with disengage.. it's entirely believable in any scenario.

The idea that everyone get's a free attack on someone passing near them is as equally bad as arguing disengage is wrong.

This entire argument is coming from melee players who feel entitled to their opinion.

It could be animated better, ie the gobbo kicks you back, then runs away.. or shoves you back, then runs.. but there is no argument for disengage not being in the game imo.

[SpicyCrab]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

And no, it doesn't make Misty Step 'useless'. With your average wizard's pitiful strength, they're not going to be able to consistently jump to higher ledges during combat safely. And forget about jumping from ground level to a rooftop if you're not a high Strength character with the Jump spell.

What do you mean?

Instead of casting 'Misty Step', I could just... use disengage, walk away, and then use my action/spell slot to cast an actual useful spell that might kill my attacker or do any other number of extremely powerful/useful things.

You might be able to find some edge case scenarios where misty step was worth using but... generally speaking... it's pointless. Spells and actions are a limited resource. Why would I use a spell slot and an action to disengage when I could just use a bonus action instead? In many ways, using the disengage bonus action is superior to Misty Step. That's weird, right?

That being said, the idea of disengage being '1x per long rest' or '1x per short rest' as a bonus action doesn't sound too bad to me. I could see that as a workable solution.
That seems a lot more fair to me.

Originally posted by Martin:

This entire argument is coming from melee players who feel entitled to their opinion.
.

Contrary to your point; the reason I find this change so necessary is that I feel it's ridiculous how easy it is for my casters to disengage from bad situations and just walk away and cast sleep or whatever the hell I want to do, it's completely free and it feels like cheating.

Literally if a melee enemy closes with my caster. I do not care or mind in the slightest. It literally makes no difference to me. I lose my bonus action? "Oh well." Doesn't that seem a little... weird?

A lot of the responses here are focused really heavily on the goblins/enemies. But the problem for me is the way that I, as a player, can abuse this mechanic in a way that feels very exploitative.

[Martin]

If YOU are doing stuff that makes YOU feel like you're Cheating.. DONT DO IT.

But don't ruin the game for EVERYONE else.

[SpicyCrab]

Originally posted by Martin:

If YOU are doing stuff that makes YOU feel like you're Cheating.. DONT DO IT.

But don't ruin the game for EVERYONE else.

If the game assumes I am doing this, and I choose not to. I'm essentially playing a really weird challenge run that might just turn out to be a complete mess balance wise. Besides, even if I wanted 'disengage to cost an action', there's no setting for that. So if I want to follow your advice, I would just... never use disengage. That sounds REALLY hard. That would make the game nearly unplayable...

To me... fixing obvious design flaws would not be 'ruining the game for everyone else.' On the contrary, I would be fixing it for you. :)

Now if you wanted to have a little tickbox in the menu labeled "degenerate, exploitable bonus action disengage system" and I could turn it off. I guess that would be enough to shut me up.

At the end of the day... when a giant ogre is standing next to my Wizard... I should be thinking "that's bad, I have to do something about that."

Instead I am thinking; "eh, i'll just give up my bonus action and run away and cast sleep or something." That is a SERIOUS balance problem.

[40k - DeathJester]

Originally posted by SpicyCrab:

1) Disengage should not be a bonus action. It's horrible, it feels horrible, it should not work that way. It really makes no sense that you can disengage from a melee opponent FOR FREE, walk away, and then just shoot them with an arrow. It's far and away the dumbest thing about the combat design.

2) Jump should not be a bonus action, for the same reasons.

3) Terrain effects last far too long, this was an annoyance in divinity and it really doesn't belong here. The amount of damage you can stack off of terrain effects feels completely inappropriate, especially because the way damage works in DnD it makes terrain effects THE BEST, because they can't miss. Bad design. Cannot just port over the terrain system from Divinity and cross your fingers, it makes no sense here. TONE IT DOWN.

Other than that, the game is excellent. As someone with 300+ hours of Baldurs Gate; this one Truly lives up to the Baldurs Gate license and is extremely impressive for an early access. The world in this game absolutely feels like Baldurs Gate, the stories are actually more complex with more decisions and more interaction with the characters. It's really impressive how many unique lines will trigger in response to your character's background and such. It's really incredibly well done.

For all the people that say this "feels nothing like Baldurs Gate"... all I can say is... when was the last time you played Baldurs Gate? Because this game feels a LOT like it.

Most of the things people are complaining about are pretty stupid, but these three are important. Please fix.

I played BG1&2 prior to this and it only partially feels like that.

I could care less about any of the above, what bothers me the most are all the unnecessary player actions that are really slowing the game down.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by SpicyCrab:

Originally posted by Hobocop:

And no, it doesn't make Misty Step 'useless'. With your average wizard's pitiful strength, they're not going to be able to consistently jump to higher ledges during combat safely. And forget about jumping from ground level to a rooftop if you're not a high Strength character with the Jump spell.

What do you mean?

Instead of casting 'Misty Step', I could just... use disengage, walk away, and then use my action/spell slot to cast an actual useful spell that might kill my attacker or do any other number of extremely powerful/useful things.

You might be able to find some edge case scenarios where misty step was worth using but... generally speaking... it's pointless. Spells and actions are a limited resource. Why would I use a spell slot and an action to disengage when I could just use a bonus action instead? In many ways, using the disengage bonus action is superior to Misty Step. That's weird, right?

That being said, the idea of disengage being '1x per long rest' or '1x per short rest' as a bonus action doesn't sound too bad to me. I could see that as a workable solution.
That seems a lot more fair to me.

It's situational depending on the terrain, of which there is a significant focus on in this game. I would absolutely use Misty Step to get an elevated position that not only help protect the wizard from further attack, but also gives me advantages on future attack rolls. Jumping still costs movement, moreso for those with low Strength, so there's not much stopping most enemies from walking up and hitting you if you don't also Dash, while Misty Step gives you a 30 foot teleport regardless.

[SpicyCrab]

Except... the alternative is using a badass spell that might take 3 enemies out of the fight, including the one that I was engaged with. Sure you... *might* sometimes want to use Misty Step but you have to agree that the presence of this extremely overpowered bonus action significantly reduces the utility of a spell like that.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by SpicyCrab:

Except... the alternative is using a badass spell that might take 3 enemies out of the fight, including the one that I was engaged with. Sure you... *might* sometimes want to use Misty Step but you have to agree that the presence of this extremely overpowered bonus action significantly reduces the utility of a spell like that.

Absolutely. I was disagreeing with the premise that it makes the spell useless. It's situational, as it should be, but the gradient is a bit too skewed right now.

[SpicyCrab]

Fair enough, yeah I agree with you. I'm not saying "YOU HAEV TO DO IT THE WAY I WANT." I guess I was being a bit hyperbolic saying "x or y is useless" :/

I'm saying... "the way it's currently implemented is... not ideal and it needs at least some tweaks so that it feels more fair/makes more sense."

[BW022]

Originally posted by dulany67:

The way Larian builds combat encounters almost requires more mobility. From a D&D rules perspective it might be bad, but without disengage and jump the game would be less enjoyable.

Good point. Because Larian has 200' encounter distances, archers neatly spread out, grenade weapons not following rules (and handed out like candy), etc., etc. you then need to change the rules to allow players to deal with it. Then deal with the issues the rules changes cause.

I've never found the solution to making an unfair combat in PnP D&D to change the rules. Always seemed easier to change the encounter.

Likewise, Larain can simply fix the encounters and the rules they are already breaking. Maybe goblins should have 7hp and not 30hp? Maybe some of them are bunched up around a camp fire? Maybe oil, acid, and alchemists fire should only affect a single target (as per 5e rules). Maybe the worgs should be in a cave and not available until round 4? Maybe archers only get a height advantage on opening rounds or within 30'? Maybe the doge action should be implemented?

[Indure]

I think jump/disengage has a lot of problems with it current.

1. They are two different actions and shouldn't have been combined to begin with.

2. Jump takes the same amount of stamina regardless of distance travelled which means strength characters should use it every turn for movement because it roughly doubles their movement which is what dash should be doing.

3. Jump allows you to easily get behind enemies to gain backstab. Part of this problem is because enemies should be turning if they are not already engage in melee, but they don't. The other part of the problem is that positioning is really fiddly in this game and there is so much stuff in the environment blocking pathing that you need something like jump to actually move around.

4. I think it is fine if jump is a bonus action because without it, melee would be impossible in this game, but it should provoke opportunity attacks if you jump from or land in a space controlled by an enemy.

5. Disengage should be an action. It is powerful enough that it really should be an action, but I think some other things need to happen before it does. Right now enemies hyper focus 1 target (usually with lowest AC) even if they have to run through OA to do it. There is no value wasting your turn disengaging if you can't escape to an area where you are safe on the next turn. I almost think disengage should be combined with dash so your character can use their turn actually escaping. Either that or the AI needs to be tweaked to avoid OA and focus on closer targets.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

It is a matter of action economy. If the enemy uses their bonus action to Jump away from you, that means they cant use that bonus action for something else(like certain spells and abilities, dual wield attacks, potions etc).

If Disengage/jump was an action, it would mean that if you fight in an area with a lot of small bridges, ledges, barricades etc. or between rocks and rooftops, you know, stuff other than a flat field, you melee fighters will have to spend most of their actions on jumping around, rather than attacking the enemy. That would greatly benefit ranged combat, dont you think?
Accoding to RAW, a fireball will ignite anything flammable that isnt worn. That means wood, grass, oil etc.. So by level 5, we will see a lot of fire surfaces, if Larian decides to do 5e RAW. Imagine getting stuck in that sea of flame, but you have to use an action to get out. And the same thing the turn after. And the turn after that.

Having Disengage/Jump as a bonus action is to make Strength based melee characters more viable overall. Not less. As Strength focused, they can jump longer(so can keep up with most enemies) or throw terrain after them(some of those loose rocks you see from time to time, or a crate).
Dex based melee characters can use the instant weapon switch to shoot while closing in.

Well, i do agree that jump just probably remain a bonus action, just to help the melees if not other changes should happen to it. But some of the combat stuff you point are a bit wrong.

Why not have rolls for it?? Two of them in fact one for the jump it self and one to see if you trigger AOP?? you got the skills for them in game already...
Or if you do not like 2 rolls on one skill make disengage a separate thing with a cool animation and maybe don't let people jump within the combat reach?? s

After all it's the spirit of Dnd to roll dice. you had to make a roll with Astarion in the combat sequence you didn't just jumped away.

IF we don't have rolls for jump, Attack of opportunity is useless and you need it to make TB at least some what not broken if not you can do whatever apart from rules of initiative.

Hell, if we remove that as well, we can just do RtwP combat with Dnd spells and elemental surfaces...

Stop defending the game it doesn't need you'r help it's good already, just needs some fixing.
Maybe instead do actual feedback that will improve the combat. You oppose everything every single suggestions people make and make none yourself.

[dolby]

Originally posted by Indure:

I think jump/disengage has a lot of problems with it current.

1. They are two different actions and shouldn't have been combined to begin with.

2. Jump takes the same amount of stamina regardless of distance travelled which means strength characters should use it every turn for movement because it roughly doubles their movement which is what dash should be doing.

3. Jump allows you to easily get behind enemies to gain backstab. Part of this problem is because enemies should be turning if they are not already engage in melee, but they don't. The other part of the problem is that positioning is really fiddly in this game and there is so much stuff in the environment blocking pathing that you need something like jump to actually move around.

4. I think it is fine if jump is a bonus action because without it, melee would be impossible in this game, but it should provoke opportunity attacks if you jump from or land in a space controlled by an enemy.

5. Disengage should be an action. It is powerful enough that it really should be an action, but I think some other things need to happen before it does. Right now enemies hyper focus 1 target (usually with lowest AC) even if they have to run through OA to do it. There is no value wasting your turn disengaging if you can't escape to an area where you are safe on the next turn. I almost think disengage should be combined with dash so your character can use their turn actually escaping. Either that or the AI needs to be tweaked to avoid OA and focus on closer targets.

some good points here i do think two skills should help to fix things ... and rolls should happen as right now they do not... whats the point of having acrobatics if you never use it??

[Thurgret]

The bonus actions in general need to be reviewed, and either be checked against stats or simply not be bonus actions. Jump/disengage is probably the most egregious at present, but having Shove as a bonus action is really much too powerful for crowd control, positioning enemies or even just throwing them off cliffs. It's a cool action, but it shouldn't be a bonus action.

[Pipinpadaloxicopolis]

Originally posted by Holy Athena:

Originally posted by dulany67:

The way Larian builds combat encounters almost requires more mobility. From a D&D rules perspective it might be bad, but without disengage and jump the game would be less enjoyable.

They just need to add DnD rules into Jump and Disengange.. It needs to have stat checks when doing it, not for free, unless its a very specific spell, like some of the mages warp spells, or blink spells. (Forget their names sorry). That's what's supposed to give these spells such uniqueness and power. The ablity for the mages to teleport to safety if they get jumped on.

Jump should be an Agility check vs the opponent.

Disengage should be a DEX check.

This makes Rogues/Rangers good at disengaging via Disengage, and or Jump, but Front line's not as good as they shouldn't be, like Warriors, Paladins, etc. Their checks should stop people from disengaging as easily though.

It's not hard to keep it in as it is, but have stat checks if engaged with an enemy.

If you fail the stat check the enemy gets to make a free swing at you. (This is how other versions of the rules work, and I like it).

yea, keep them as bonus actions, but have them tied to a roll (when they tout so many other things are, its bizarre this isnt)

i will say get rid of stealth as a bonus, its silly and makes rogues WAY less useful (unique) in combat