Picking Faiths for Non-Cleric Characters

[Haven]

I can't be the only one who wishes that they could select a deity to follow on my other characters. My very first D&D character was a half-elf Warlord (4e) that worshipped the dwarven god Moradin. I tried to recreate him as a fighter battlemaster but was disappointed when I couldn't select his deity, a feature that heavily defined the way my character was played. And what of my Drow bladedancer Wizard from Menzoberanzan that secretly worships Eilistraee?

Also, Drow having two "subraces" feels really strange when the options could be summed up with either picking a religion or a hometown.

Anybody else wish they could select a religion for their characters?

[Haven]

引用自 Siddown：

TL;DR: Non-Clerics tend not to worship a single deity.

you literally quoted a thorough and well-worded passage that says *everyone* worships multiple deities and TL;DR'd it incorrectly xD nice, lol.

[ArchmageXin]

引用自 GrandMajora：

引用自 Lady_Regret：

Honestly I find it more strange that the text description makes it seem like having red eyes is a sign of worshipping Lloth rather then just plain genetics but if that were true wouldn’t they consider any other eye color to be a blemish to be destroyed and kill the babies?

Uhh, you do know that any Drow who tries to forsake Lolth is, in fact, killed on sight by her followers, right?

As for 'genetics' that doesn't apply to the world of fantasy. The Drow did not originally have dark skin and sunlight sensitivity. These features are the result of a curse that the Seldarine placed upon them as punishment for siding with Lolth and engaging in their extremely evil practices. The curse also affected them on a spiritual level, since the surface elves have visions of their past lives while in their trance state, while Drow see nothing but darkness, and on occasion receive prophetic dreams from Lolth herself.

Simply put, the gods have the ability to change your biology on a whim. Science and logic does not apply to the world of fantasy.

Actually, they changed that.

Basically, after the descent, Lolth sent a demon to sexy time with many Drow women as possible, so there is the "demonified" Drow, and regular dark elves whom not carrying the taint.

The taint was eventually purged through a major ritual and sacifice/death of Eilistraee.

[HELLAFLUSH]

引用自 Haven923：

引用自 HELLAFLUSH：

It's a thing tho. They aren't subraces per-se but Seld drow are ways to represent that you want a Drizzt-like drow. You have to remember that Drow historically are the elves that swore themselves to Lloth during the big elven pantheon war and were thus exiled with her. This isn't a society that "lets" you choose another deity.
At best you're an atheist, in which case you couldn't be a cleric to begin with you know?

Oh, I understand what it is meant for but it still doesn't make much sense to me in its current implementation. Drizzt was from Menzoberranzan but abandoned it and forsook Llolth. So were you try to build him he would be a Seldarin Drow for religion and a llolth-sworn drow for hometown.

Except he wouldn't because those aren't good fits. Seldarin refers to the non-drow elvish pantheon with the drow pantheon being known as the dark seldarin. Except Eilistraee is a part of the dark seldarin and you can only pick her if you are a seladrin drow, but if you are a seldarin drow you're still not even limited to the seladrin options... It is just a really rough fit. Put drow under elves (I understand separating them to signify the large narrative difference, but they ARE elves) and give them two selection fields: religion and origin. For origin, have Underdark/Menzoberranzan, Baldur's Gate, and none/other. For religion, have a highlighted extra bit of detail under Llolth to explain the diferent narrative opportunities and make it the default option for visibility, but let the player switch it if they want. Heck, you can keep the two different drow even if they were under Elves, just call the seldarin drow something like non-Llolthian drow or something that is more accurate.

And yes, I know that this would be creating a bunch of extra work. I'm in the industry and understand the degree of it more than most. But in a perfect world, something like what I've described is what I would change.

Lloth-sworn drow aren't just from Menzo tho, that's just the default as it's the largest Drow city left. There's Ched Nesad, and also another city where renegade males take control, along with numerous smaller unnamed settlements. The flavor text in this isn't something to be taken religiously.
Drizzt would be a Seldarine drow. He never worshipped Lloth at any point in the novels. From birth to leaving Menzo, Drizzt was an atheist. It's a big deal when he accepts Mielekki as his goddess because prior to that, given his experiences with the Priestesses of Lloth, Drizzt had a very low opinion of them.
In addition, not even all menzo drow are "lloth sworn". You had house Oblodra, known for being psionics, who quite literally only sent their daughters to become clerics at the academy. After returning to the house, they were no longer priestesses, and it was well known that most of their "clerical" magic was in fact just psionics that they kept up so nobody could outright accuse them of sacrilige.
Jarlaxle, the most powerful male in Menzo, does not worship lloth, tho it's been implied he's one of her chosen agents.
Gromph Baenre, Archmage of Menzo is outright an atheist, disparaging Lloth at multiple times and its even mentioned that many of the magical dweomers that Baenre is so proud of were done by Gromph as a way to divert his mother and sister's ire at his lack of faith.
And this is ignoring that Ed Greenwood who is the chief writer of Forgotten Realms has changed this over the years. At first the drow were monsters only. Then Drizzt came and they started getting options and stat blocks and things to help players use them, but it wasnt til 5th edition that they were outright a phb core race. Since the release of 5E Greenwood has created Eliastraee, half-drow, and an entire nation of surface dwelling dark elves, which resulted in some retcons.
Consider that Drizzt debuted in 1988 and 5E came out in 2014, there are going to be some inconstants that will never add up.

[ArchmageXin]

I am pretty sure Drows PC were in 3rd edition. I tried to play one but the +2 level penalty was garbage.

ssrmath I believe is the Drow city openly ruled by wizards, males or female. It even allow Human and Elven residents, as long as the are practioner of Arcane Magic.

[Haven]

引用自 HELLAFLUSH：

引用自 Haven923：

Oh, I understand what it is meant for but it still doesn't make much sense to me in its current implementation. Drizzt was from Menzoberranzan but abandoned it and forsook Llolth. So were you try to build him he would be a Seldarin Drow for religion and a llolth-sworn drow for hometown.

Except he wouldn't because those aren't good fits. Seldarin refers to the non-drow elvish pantheon with the drow pantheon being known as the dark seldarin. Except Eilistraee is a part of the dark seldarin and you can only pick her if you are a seladrin drow, but if you are a seldarin drow you're still not even limited to the seladrin options... It is just a really rough fit. Put drow under elves (I understand separating them to signify the large narrative difference, but they ARE elves) and give them two selection fields: religion and origin. For origin, have Underdark/Menzoberranzan, Baldur's Gate, and none/other. For religion, have a highlighted extra bit of detail under Llolth to explain the diferent narrative opportunities and make it the default option for visibility, but let the player switch it if they want. Heck, you can keep the two different drow even if they were under Elves, just call the seldarin drow something like non-Llolthian drow or something that is more accurate.

And yes, I know that this would be creating a bunch of extra work. I'm in the industry and understand the degree of it more than most. But in a perfect world, something like what I've described is what I would change.

Lloth-sworn drow aren't just from Menzo tho, that's just the default as it's the largest Drow city left. There's Ched Nesad, and also another city where renegade males take control, along with numerous smaller unnamed settlements. The flavor text in this isn't something to be taken religiously.
Drizzt would be a Seldarine drow. He never worshipped Lloth at any point in the novels. From birth to leaving Menzo, Drizzt was an atheist. It's a big deal when he accepts Mielekki as his goddess because prior to that, given his experiences with the Priestesses of Lloth, Drizzt had a very low opinion of them.
In addition, not even all menzo drow are "lloth sworn". You had house Oblodra, known for being psionics, who quite literally only sent their daughters to become clerics at the academy. After returning to the house, they were no longer priestesses, and it was well known that most of their "clerical" magic was in fact just psionics that they kept up so nobody could outright accuse them of sacrilige.
Jarlaxle, the most powerful male in Menzo, does not worship lloth, tho it's been implied he's one of her chosen agents.
Gromph Baenre, Archmage of Menzo is outright an atheist, disparaging Lloth at multiple times and its even mentioned that many of the magical dweomers that Baenre is so proud of were done by Gromph as a way to divert his mother and sister's ire at his lack of faith.
And this is ignoring that Ed Greenwood who is the chief writer of Forgotten Realms has changed this over the years. At first the drow were monsters only. Then Drizzt came and they started getting options and stat blocks and things to help players use them, but it wasnt til 5th edition that they were outright a phb core race. Since the release of 5E Greenwood has created Eliastraee, half-drow, and an entire nation of surface dwelling dark elves, which resulted in some retcons.
Consider that Drizzt debuted in 1988 and 5E came out in 2014, there are going to be some inconstants that will never add up.

Oblodra were in Llolth's favor until the spellplague where they became too ambitious and tried to overthrow house Baenre and thought themselves above. They may have not been the most fanatical followers, but they were followers nonetheless. Newest book has some cool points towards that.
Gromph resented Llolth, but was an obedient servant (mostly) to her nonetheless and I think it was mentioned that he had even passed some of the most demanding challenges where even his soul was laid bare and to fail in true devotion would be to become a drider. It wasn't until later where he truly became disillusioned after the betrayal that resulted in the summoning of Demogorgon.

And if not a Menzoberranzan origin, then at least the opportunity to choose a general 'underdark' origin for llolth-sworn drow. I understand that they want to push the PC being Baldurian, but I'd love to be able to choose a different option. Dalelands are an option in most other D&D games that let you choose and would love that for my run of my half-elf fighter/cleric multiclass that worships Moradin. :P

[HELLAFLUSH]

引用自 Haven923：

引用自 HELLAFLUSH：

Lloth-sworn drow aren't just from Menzo tho, that's just the default as it's the largest Drow city left. There's Ched Nesad, and also another city where renegade males take control, along with numerous smaller unnamed settlements. The flavor text in this isn't something to be taken religiously.
Drizzt would be a Seldarine drow. He never worshipped Lloth at any point in the novels. From birth to leaving Menzo, Drizzt was an atheist. It's a big deal when he accepts Mielekki as his goddess because prior to that, given his experiences with the Priestesses of Lloth, Drizzt had a very low opinion of them.
In addition, not even all menzo drow are "lloth sworn". You had house Oblodra, known for being psionics, who quite literally only sent their daughters to become clerics at the academy. After returning to the house, they were no longer priestesses, and it was well known that most of their "clerical" magic was in fact just psionics that they kept up so nobody could outright accuse them of sacrilige.
Jarlaxle, the most powerful male in Menzo, does not worship lloth, tho it's been implied he's one of her chosen agents.
Gromph Baenre, Archmage of Menzo is outright an atheist, disparaging Lloth at multiple times and its even mentioned that many of the magical dweomers that Baenre is so proud of were done by Gromph as a way to divert his mother and sister's ire at his lack of faith.
And this is ignoring that Ed Greenwood who is the chief writer of Forgotten Realms has changed this over the years. At first the drow were monsters only. Then Drizzt came and they started getting options and stat blocks and things to help players use them, but it wasnt til 5th edition that they were outright a phb core race. Since the release of 5E Greenwood has created Eliastraee, half-drow, and an entire nation of surface dwelling dark elves, which resulted in some retcons.
Consider that Drizzt debuted in 1988 and 5E came out in 2014, there are going to be some inconstants that will never add up.

Oblodra were in Llolth's favor until the spellplague where they became too ambitious and tried to overthrow house Baenre and thought themselves above. They may have not been the most fanatical followers, but they were followers nonetheless. Newest book has some cool points towards that.
Gromph resented Llolth, but was an obedient servant (mostly) to her nonetheless and I think it was mentioned that he had even passed some of the most demanding challenges where even his soul was laid bare and to fail in true devotion would be to become a drider. It wasn't until later where he truly became disillusioned after the betrayal that resulted in the summoning of Demogorgon.

And if not a Menzoberranzan origin, then at least the opportunity to choose a general 'underdark' origin for llolth-sworn drow. I understand that they want to push the PC being Baldurian, but I'd love to be able to choose a different option. Dalelands are an option in most other D&D games that let you choose and would love that for my run of my half-elf fighter/cleric multiclass that worships Moradin. :P

I literally just got done reading siege of darkness, so i can give you direct quotes about both Oblodra and Gromph.
"It was no secret in Menzoberranzan that Gromph was not te most devout of Lolth's followers, no secret that the creation of the magnificent illusion had spared him his mother's unmerciful wrath." Page 122

In addition, gromph passing Lloths tests means little. Drizzt dourden has "passed" her tests because of the sheer amount of chaos he introduced and continues to introduce into Drow society, as houses scramble to capture him or get out of his way.

Page 392 - "Always before, the spider Queen had kept House Oblodra in her favor, even though the so-called "priestesses" of the house were not pious and sometimes openly expressed their disdain for Lolth. These strange powers of the Olbodrans, this psionic strength, had intrigued Lolth as much as it frightened the other Houses of Menzoberranzan. None of those houses wanted a war against K'yorl and her clan, and Lolth hadn't demanded one."

It outright says that the Oblodras aren't followers of lolth, like directly from the text. the reference to being in lolth's favor is because no house would reasonably attack a house that hadn't lost the favor of the spider queen

Another example, from a confrontation between Matron mother K'yorl Oblodra and another house's matron mother.
Page 319 - "I am sorry Fini'they was not enough to bring in your impotent Spider Queen," K'yorl taunted, brazenly blasphemous.

Page 294, an encounter with Jarlaxle.
"Surely you are not intruding on my mind, Matron K'yorl! Though i am but a male, such practices are surely frowned upon, Lolth would not be pleased."
"Damn Lolth," Kyorl growled, and Jarlaxle was stunned that she had put it so clearly, so bluntly. Of course everyone knew that House Oblodra was not the most religious of Drow houses, but the Oblodrans had always kept up the pretense of piety.
K'yorl tapped her temple, her features stern. "If lolth was worthy of my praise, she would have recognized the truth of power." the matron mother explained. "It is the mind that seperates us from our lessers, the mind that should determine order."

You may have an argument with gromph, but the third house in Menzoberranzan was 100% not devout or even actively worshipping Lloth.

[robomagon]

引用自 echoes222：

reading through this post, there is one misconception to clear - atheism, as we know it, is not something happening in Faerun. Instead, people are willingly choosing not to devote to any single deity, They do know gods exist (you'd have to be insane to think gods do not exist if they are literally walked the earth. Multiple times.)

and yes, I believe there should be a choice of faith for non clerics. just like in NWN2. Minor thing, but it added deepness.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless

[echoes222]

引用自 robomagon：

引用自 echoes222：

reading through this post, there is one misconception to clear - atheism, as we know it, is not something happening in Faerun. Instead, people are willingly choosing not to devote to any single deity, They do know gods exist (you'd have to be insane to think gods do not exist if they are literally walked the earth. Multiple times.)

and yes, I believe there should be a choice of faith for non clerics. just like in NWN2. Minor thing, but it added deepness.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless

those guys do not deny existence of the gods, they refuse to worship them

[WilhemFaust]

Yeah I would also enjoy that except for Warlocks maybe as you could argue that their Patron is kind of their god or similar plus if you go so far as to bargain with the Fiend or the Great Old One I doubt you'd care to worship any god having pretty much sold your soul already.

[Haven]

引用自 HELLAFLUSH：

引用自 Haven923：

Oblodra were in Llolth's favor until the spellplague where they became too ambitious and tried to overthrow house Baenre and thought themselves above. They may have not been the most fanatical followers, but they were followers nonetheless. Newest book has some cool points towards that.
Gromph resented Llolth, but was an obedient servant (mostly) to her nonetheless and I think it was mentioned that he had even passed some of the most demanding challenges where even his soul was laid bare and to fail in true devotion would be to become a drider. It wasn't until later where he truly became disillusioned after the betrayal that resulted in the summoning of Demogorgon.

And if not a Menzoberranzan origin, then at least the opportunity to choose a general 'underdark' origin for llolth-sworn drow. I understand that they want to push the PC being Baldurian, but I'd love to be able to choose a different option. Dalelands are an option in most other D&D games that let you choose and would love that for my run of my half-elf fighter/cleric multiclass that worships Moradin. :P

I literally just got done reading siege of darkness, so i can give you direct quotes about both Oblodra and Gromph.
"It was no secret in Menzoberranzan that Gromph was not te most devout of Lolth's followers, no secret that the creation of the magnificent illusion had spared him his mother's unmerciful wrath." Page 122

In addition, gromph passing Lloths tests means little. Drizzt dourden has "passed" her tests because of the sheer amount of chaos he introduced and continues to introduce into Drow society, as houses scramble to capture him or get out of his way.

Page 392 - "Always before, the spider Queen had kept House Oblodra in her favor, even though the so-called "priestesses" of the house were not pious and sometimes openly expressed their disdain for Lolth. These strange powers of the Olbodrans, this psionic strength, had intrigued Lolth as much as it frightened the other Houses of Menzoberranzan. None of those houses wanted a war against K'yorl and her clan, and Lolth hadn't demanded one."

It outright says that the Oblodras aren't followers of lolth, like directly from the text. the reference to being in lolth's favor is because no house would reasonably attack a house that hadn't lost the favor of the spider queen

Another example, from a confrontation between Matron mother K'yorl Oblodra and another house's matron mother.
Page 319 - "I am sorry Fini'they was not enough to bring in your impotent Spider Queen," K'yorl taunted, brazenly blasphemous.

Page 294, an encounter with Jarlaxle.
"Surely you are not intruding on my mind, Matron K'yorl! Though i am but a male, such practices are surely frowned upon, Lolth would not be pleased."
"Damn Lolth," Kyorl growled, and Jarlaxle was stunned that she had put it so clearly, so bluntly. Of course everyone knew that House Oblodra was not the most religious of Drow houses, but the Oblodrans had always kept up the pretense of piety.
K'yorl tapped her temple, her features stern. "If lolth was worthy of my praise, she would have recognized the truth of power." the matron mother explained. "It is the mind that seperates us from our lessers, the mind that should determine order."

You may have an argument with gromph, but the third house in Menzoberranzan was 100% not devout or even actively worshipping Lloth.

I just got done reading Relentless, the most recently written of the books. The Oblodrans were far more complicated and the truth of their house is greatly expanded upon long after their downfall.

And the test I am mentioning is not a test that Drizzt has taken or could have passed. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Test_of_Lolth

[Hex]

Your choice of a god makes 0 difference unless you're a cleric so I don't see how it matters, unless you're one of those people who push their beliefs on others in real life too.

[AsianGirlLover]

I agree with OP, everyone should have an option to choose their preferred deity.

Just to clarify: not having a deity that you worship effectively guarantees that your soul is tortured for all eternity upon death.

Atheism in DnD in the sense of “I don’t believe the Gods exist” doesn’t work because there’s blatant, obvious examples of their existence all around... therefore, an atheist would probably make the following claim: “I know these beings exist, but they are not gods. They’re extremely powerful, magical beings similar to dragons, and they can be overpowered and destroyed just like anything else.”

Edit: MFW I just realized the inspiration for Larian’s Divinity series was DnD and DOS2 is effectively a homebrew campaign of a bunch of edgy atheists killing Gods and replacing them.

[Hex]

引用自 AsianGirlLover：

I agree with OP, everyone should have an option to choose their preferred deity.

Just to clarify: not having a deity that you worship effectively guarantees that your soul is tortured for all eternity upon death.

Atheism in DnD in the sense of “I don’t believe the Gods exist” doesn’t work because there’s blatant, obvious examples of their existence all around... therefore, an atheist would probably make the following claim: “I know these beings exist, but they are not gods. They’re extremely powerful, magical beings similar to dragons, and they can be overpowered and destroyed just like anything else.”

Edit: MFW I just realized the inspiration for Larian’s Divinity series was DnD and DOS2 is effectively a homebrew campaign of a bunch of edgy atheists killing Gods and replacing them.

Don't play Pillars of Eternity, you'll get a headache ;D

[AsianGirlLover]

引用自 Hex：

Don't play Pillars of Eternity, you'll get a headache ;D

Lol, right? I picked a priest of Eothas for my first playthrough of 1&2. Boy... that sure made things strange for me towards the end...

[Haven]

引用自 Hex：

Your choice of a god makes 0 difference unless you're a cleric so I don't see how it matters, unless you're one of those people who push their beliefs on others in real life too.

Because this is a roleplaying game where you play as a character and what your character believes is a big part of who that character is. Plus, religion is a huge part of D&D even if people continuously try to bash anything that mentions the big scary "r-word"