Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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Can Warlocks Summoning Demons in BG3
Hey guys,

will the class be able to summon demons? or anything else summonable for this class?
Ultima modifica da Jablo; 5 ott 2020, ore 8:43
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If you want a really exhaustive and comprehensive guide to making a 5E demon summoner (Warlock is in there), try this:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571822-Daemonology-and-You-jiriku-s-guide-to-binding-demons-devils-and-other-fiends

Note: a lot of that content is from sources other than Forgotten Realms (where BG3 is set) and unlikely to make it in-game.
i really think they need to DO summoning... if its's bad in DnD 5e like some of you say they need to fix it or there gonna be some sad and unhappy people...
Ultima modifica da dolby; 5 ott 2020, ore 6:36
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Messaggio originale di Woodchuck Norris:
Once the later levels unlock, warlocks have Summon Greater Demon as a 4th level spell (so 7th character level) and Infernal Calling as a 5th level spell (9th level) if they put those spells into the game.

Er, no they do not.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/warlock:fiend

It's a spell from A spell from Xanathar's Guide To Everything, Conjuration, and is hideously badly balanced and terrible. It should be called "Summon Minor Demon who probably will pass its wis saving throw on the 1st round then attempt to kill your under-levelled punk conjuror"

https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/summon-greater-demon

Spoken like someone who has never actually used Summon Greater Demon. First off it's a charisma save it has to perform and demons do not have very great charisma and it's against the warlock's spell save, which is charisma based and is the main stat of the warlock. It fails it most often, not to mention you even gain a safety circle where it cannot attack you even if it breaks free from your control.. and even then it says specifically in the spell that the demon attacks the nearest non-demon thing once it is no longer under your control.
So just send it behind the enemy and then if you lose control, it's no bother, it'll die from the enemies or be badly beaten by the end enough for your party to wreck it, not to mention once you lose control it has 1d6 rounds left before it just vanishes.

That's how it works in the tabletop, no clue if they'll put any of it in the game.
Messaggio originale di Cultural Duck:
Messaggio originale di Boink:

Er, no they do not.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/warlock:fiend

It's a spell from A spell from Xanathar's Guide To Everything, Conjuration, and is hideously badly balanced and terrible. It should be called "Summon Minor Demon who probably will pass its wis saving throw on the 1st round then attempt to kill your under-levelled punk conjuror"

https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/summon-greater-demon

Spoken like someone who has never actually used Summon Greater Demon. First off it's a charisma save it has to perform and demons do not have very great charisma and it's against the warlock's spell save, which is charisma based and is the main stat of the warlock. It fails it most often, not to mention you even gain a safety circle where it cannot attack you even if it breaks free from your control.. and even then it says specifically in the spell that the demon attacks the nearest non-demon thing once it is no longer under your control.
So just send it behind the enemy and then if you lose control, it's no bother, it'll die from the enemies or be badly beaten by the end enough for your party to wreck it, not to mention once you lose control it has 1d6 rounds left before it just vanishes.

That's how it works in the tabletop, no clue if they'll put any of it in the game.


Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour -- concentration spell, eh? Can't possibly see the issue here. As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. . This means that the caster, using a concentration spell, cannot move. Stationary concentration spell? Oooh boy. Gonna hit you with a -2AC penalty since the caster is very determined to stay inside that circle as well.

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=shadow-demon

14 chr vrs your 17

Lastly: your GM is treating you too nicely. "Only attacks the nearest creatures". Shadow Demons have int 14 (and flight): meaning it not only knows who summoned it, it can recognise that the caster is stationary. Your GM is being waaay too generous and not playing demons correctly if she just shrugs and says "Oh well, it attacks the nearest bad guy".

Get a better GM.
Ultima modifica da Boink; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:05
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Messaggio originale di Cultural Duck:

Spoken like someone who has never actually used Summon Greater Demon. First off it's a charisma save it has to perform and demons do not have very great charisma and it's against the warlock's spell save, which is charisma based and is the main stat of the warlock. It fails it most often, not to mention you even gain a safety circle where it cannot attack you even if it breaks free from your control.. and even then it says specifically in the spell that the demon attacks the nearest non-demon thing once it is no longer under your control.
So just send it behind the enemy and then if you lose control, it's no bother, it'll die from the enemies or be badly beaten by the end enough for your party to wreck it, not to mention once you lose control it has 1d6 rounds left before it just vanishes.

That's how it works in the tabletop, no clue if they'll put any of it in the game.


Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour -- concentration spell, eh? Can't possibly see the issue here. As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. . This means that the caster, using a concentration spell, cannot move. Stationary concentration spell? Oooh boy. Gonna hit you with a -2AC penalty since the caster is very determined to stay inside that circle as well.

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=shadow-demon

14 chr vrs your 17

Lastly: your GM is treating you too nicely. "Only attacks the nearest creatures". Shadow Demons have int 14 (and flight): meaning it not only knows who summoned it, it can recognise that the caster is stationary. Your GM is being waaay too generous and not playing demons correctly if she just shrugs and says "Oh well, it attacks the nearest bad guy".

Get a better GM.

Casters can move with concentration spells. They can also cast other spells. They can only use one concentration spell at a time though.
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Lastly: your GM is treating you too nicely. "Only attacks the nearest creatures". Shadow Demons have int 14 (and flight): meaning it not only knows who summoned it, it can recognise that the caster is stationary. Your GM is being waaay too generous and not playing demons correctly if she just shrugs and says "Oh well, it attacks the nearest bad guy".

Get a better GM.
No, that's an explicit part of the spell:
"On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability"

Being able to read is not niceness
Messaggio originale di Dragon Master:
Casters can move with concentration spells. They can also cast other spells. They can only use one concentration spell at a time though.

Read the spell description.

Messaggio originale di Boink:
As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. . This means that the caster, using a concentration spell, cannot move. Stationary concentration spell? Oooh boy. Gonna hit you with a -2AC penalty since the


It's also a terrible spell description as it blatantly mis-applies the basics of summoning (i.e. it's unwilling so if command is broken it *will* seek to attack the caster) & I wouldn't consider it cannon.
Messaggio originale di sagamov:
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Lastly: your GM is treating you too nicely. "Only attacks the nearest creatures". Shadow Demons have int 14 (and flight): meaning it not only knows who summoned it, it can recognise that the caster is stationary. Your GM is being waaay too generous and not playing demons correctly if she just shrugs and says "Oh well, it attacks the nearest bad guy".

Get a better GM.
No, that's an explicit part of the spell:
"On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability"

Being able to read is not niceness


It's wrong. That's not how summoning works in D&D and it's a terrible spell for suggesting that part.

These are Abyssal chaotic evil creatures, not fluffy bunnies and they're intelligent. You're also summoning / binding them against their will, part and parcel of the spell is the inherent danger to summoning such beings. This spell seeks to remove that via hand-waivium.


The spell is simply incorrect & shouldn't be allowed in 5E games. Most of Xan is like this, it's badly written fan-fiction at most.

If your Concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes Hostile toward you and your companions, and it might Attack. An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it. The DM has the elemental's Statistics.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conjure%20Elemental#content

This is the same type of spell, the same rules apply (moreso for CE Demons in fact)
Ultima modifica da Boink; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:20
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Messaggio originale di Cultural Duck:

Spoken like someone who has never actually used Summon Greater Demon. First off it's a charisma save it has to perform and demons do not have very great charisma and it's against the warlock's spell save, which is charisma based and is the main stat of the warlock. It fails it most often, not to mention you even gain a safety circle where it cannot attack you even if it breaks free from your control.. and even then it says specifically in the spell that the demon attacks the nearest non-demon thing once it is no longer under your control.
So just send it behind the enemy and then if you lose control, it's no bother, it'll die from the enemies or be badly beaten by the end enough for your party to wreck it, not to mention once you lose control it has 1d6 rounds left before it just vanishes.

That's how it works in the tabletop, no clue if they'll put any of it in the game.


Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour -- concentration spell, eh? Can't possibly see the issue here. As part of casting the spell, you can form a circle on the ground with the blood used as a material component. . This means that the caster, using a concentration spell, cannot move. Stationary concentration spell? Oooh boy. Gonna hit you with a -2AC penalty since the caster is very determined to stay inside that circle as well.

https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/monstres.php?vo=shadow-demon

14 chr vrs your 17

Lastly: your GM is treating you too nicely. "Only attacks the nearest creatures". Shadow Demons have int 14 (and flight): meaning it not only knows who summoned it, it can recognise that the caster is stationary. Your GM is being waaay too generous and not playing demons correctly if she just shrugs and says "Oh well, it attacks the nearest bad guy".

Get a better GM.
"demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability. I"




Messaggio originale di Boink:
Messaggio originale di sagamov:
No, that's an explicit part of the spell:
"On a successful save, your control of the demon ends for the rest of the duration, and the demon spends its turns pursuing and attacking the nearest non-demons to the best of its ability"

Being able to read is not niceness


It's wrong. That's not how summoning works in 5E and it's a terrible spell for suggesting that part.

These are Abyssal chaotic evil creatures, not fluffy bunnies and they're intelligent.


The spell is simply incorrect & shouldn't be allowed in 5E games.
Mate, the spell is canon.
Argueing that someone is a terrible dm for using a canon spell, as described, is a pretty stupid move no? And remember, at the end of the day, the game is more about everyone having fun rather than being a lore freak or punishing players because you think something isn't right.

In my eyes, you are the terrible dm.
Ultima modifica da RocketMan; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:22
Messaggio originale di Mail me to the Moon:
Mate, the spell is canon.
Argueing that someone is a terrible dm for using a canon spell, as described, is a pretty stupid move no? And remember, at the end of the day, the game is more about everyone having fun rather than being a lore freak or punishing players because you think something isn't right.

If your Concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes Hostile toward you and your companions, and it might Attack.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conjure%20Elemental#content


I don't consider Xan cannon. Also, read page 6: "The DM adjudicates the rules". It's simply badly worded content that doesn't even follow the rules all other summoning rules apply.

"Summon demons but they won't attack you" is... terrible. It's literally breaking the entire meta so that some badly run Warlock twinks can summon things without danger.

@OP

Xan is not Forgotton Realms and is unlikely to be in BG3 without Larian altering it anyhow.
Ultima modifica da Boink; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:26
Messaggio originale di Boink:
Messaggio originale di Mail me to the Moon:
Mate, the spell is canon.
Argueing that someone is a terrible dm for using a canon spell, as described, is a pretty stupid move no? And remember, at the end of the day, the game is more about everyone having fun rather than being a lore freak or punishing players because you think something isn't right.

If your Concentration is broken, the elemental doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the elemental, it becomes Hostile toward you and your companions, and it might Attack.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conjure%20Elemental#content


I don't consider Xan cannon. Also, read page 6: "The DM adjudicates the rules". It's simply badly worded content that doesn't even follow the rules all other summoning rules apply.

"Summon demons but they won't attack you" is... terrible.

@OP

Xan is not Forgotton Realms and is unlikely to be in BG3 without Larian altering it anyhow.
Xan's guide is legal in adventurer's league, which is everything you need to know about things that are officially canon.

Your personal view on what is/isn't canon is nothing more than your opinion, not a fact.

"Summon demons but they won't attack you" is... terrible.
They will if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Misconstruing things will only make people not trust you.
Messaggio originale di Boink:


These are Abyssal chaotic evil creatures, not fluffy bunnies and they're intelligent.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Conjure%20Elemental#content

This is the same type of spell, the same rules apply (moreso for CE Demons in fact)
The description for Infernal Calling is also different from both, so it makes more sense to think it works different for different summons, the emphasis in the demon version seems to be on the Chaotic part, so is not completely out of question for the embodiment of chaos to just attack the closer target, more so if the caster is in a magical circle. In the devil version, it can react in whatever way they want so is weird to assume the design philosophy was to handwave any danger when a similar spell on the same book doesn't
Messaggio originale di Mail me to the Moon:
Xan's guide is legal in adventurer's league, which is everything you need to know about things that are officially canon.

Hmm, let's see:

Devils: MM (67):

However it is summoned, a devil brought to the Material Plane typically resents being pressed into service. However, the devil seizes every opportunity to corrupt its summoner so that the summoner's soul ends up in the Nine Hells. Only imps are truly content to be summoned, and they easily commit to serving a summoner as a familiar, but they still do their utmost to corrupt those who summon them.

Yugoloths (a specific circumstance) (MM 311):

A yugoloth summoned using its true name, as inscribed in the Books of Keeping, is forced to serve its summoner obediently. The yugoloth hates being controlled in this manner and isn't shy about making its displeasure known.

Elementals (MM 123):

Certain spells and magic items can conjure an elemental, summoning it from the Inner Planes to the Material Plane. Elementals instinctively resent being pulled from their native planes and bound into service. A creature that summons an elemental must assert force of will to control it.

Demons (MM 53):

A mortal who learns a demon's true name can use powerful summoning magic to call the demon from the Abyss and exercise some measure of control over it. However, most demons brought to the Material Plane in this manner do everything in their power to wreak havoc or sow discord and strife.

(MM 51):

If a single mistake is made, a demon that breaks free shows no mercy as it makes its summoner the first victim of its wrath.

One exception is a Glabrezu (MM 53):

A glabrezu takes great pleasure in destroying mortals through temptation, and these creatures are among the few demons to offer their service to creatures foolish enough to summon them.

The Gate spell is explicit about simply pulling any creature away without notice:

When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature (a pseudonym, title, or nickname doesn't work). If that creature is on a plane other than the one you are on, the portal opens in the named creature's immediate vicinity and draws the creature through it to the nearest unoccupied space on your side of the portal. You gain no Special power over the creature, and it is free to act as the DM deems appropriate. It might leave, Attack you, or help you.

The Conjure Fey spell implies that the fey resents being summoned, since it attacks you if you lose concentration (much like a demon):

If your Concentration is broken, the fey creature doesn't disappear. Instead, you lose control of the fey creature, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might Attack.


Yeah, the entire D&D rules state specifically monsters go hostile if you lose command of them, especially demons, which are both intelligent *and* Chaotic Evil.


But one 4th level spell is immune to it.

Monster Manual p51: If a single mistake is made, a demon that breaks free shows no mercy as it makes its summoner the first victim of its wrath.



It's wrong & needs a re-write: MM > Xan.
Ultima modifica da Boink; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:38
You may have missed the part where it does go hostile?

The spell limits it to nearest creatures though.

Again, it is canon. You declaring it wrong does not change the facts. Regardless of if it needs a rewrite or not.

And changing the spell in a way that makes it unbalanced and unfair, makes you a pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥ dm whose more concerned about lore than his players.
Ultima modifica da RocketMan; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:40
Messaggio originale di Mail me to the Moon:
You may have missed the part where it does go hostile?

The spell limits it to nearest creatures though.

Again, it is canon. You declaring it wrong does not change the facts. Regardless of if it needs a rewrite or not.

And changing the spell in a way that makes it unbalanced and unfair, makes you a pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥ dm whose more concerned about lore than his players.

The MM is also cannon, and is a core book rather than an optional add-on.

Monster Manual p51: If a single mistake is made, a demon that breaks free shows no mercy as it makes its summoner the first victim of its wrath.

You might get away with low int demon simply going berserk (barlgura), a Shadow Demon has high int (14) so no.


"Unbalanced and unfair". Conjure Elemental, same level has the hostile rule. The spell *not* having it is the unfair and unbalanced thing, you dolt.
Ultima modifica da Boink; 5 ott 2020, ore 7:43
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Data di pubblicazione: 5 ott 2020, ore 5:44
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