Why RTwP lost and is slowly disappearing

[Tremendous Turtle]

Like Josh Sawyer, the director or PoE2, publicly stated: RTwP is a mechanic of the past that only gets used for nostalgic reasons. This was the sole reason they implemented it in PoE. To make it look and feel just like the old Infinity games. Sadly, it turned out this also severely limited the combat possibilities, which is one of the reasons why PoE2 flopped and nearly every other RTwP cRPG out there isn't doing as well as it could have done or doesn't even come close to reaching the numbers of the TB cRPG's out there.

Just like the head combat designer of Baldur's Gate 3 says: RTwP is a mess. It desperately tries to gap the bridge between 2 very different combat styles: RT and TB, but fails at both since it doesn't do either of them any justice. What you get is an ugly mix with less strategic value than either of the combat mechanics it so desperately tries to mimic. At the time of the infinity games, RT combat in video games wasn't only expensive, but also not as advanced as it is today. D&D is obviously TB, but Black Isle wanted to make the combat more action orientated, to also attract a younger audience. Here, straight from the horse's mouth:

“Bioware planned for Baldur’s Gate to be a blend of old and new. “It was kind of this examination of the old Gold Box games in terms of their depth and their adherence to the [D&D] rules,” Oster says, referring to a series of D&D RPGs produced by Strategic Simulations, Inc. in the late ’80s and early ’90s. It became pretty obvious pretty quick that there was no way you were gonna be able to play the depths of D&D in real time without ever pausing the game,” Oster says. “That’s when we came up with the ‘pause and play’ plan.” That addition enabled players to stop in the middle of the game, queue up commands to their party, and then restart the real-time action"

RTwP tried to find the right balance, while also being a lot cheaper. For the time, back then, it sort of worked. However, now that technology is more advanced, it's clear it's an archaic system which is why it's disappearing. Hell, even Owlcat, who found some moderate success with Pathfinder: Kingmaker, are implementing a TB mode into their next sequel after witnessing the huge succes of the TB mod for their own game. Suddenly the reviews went from "mixed" to "positive" and now they're even at "very positive", sitting at a respectable 75%.

That's 2 developers of 2 of the biggest cRPG franchises in history, saying that RTwP is not a great combat mechanic. That doesn't mean it has no fans left. There's still some people out there that actually prefer RTwP and will fight tooth and nail to defend it, even though the evidence of it being less strategic is pretty overwhelming. To each their own. Hopefully some fan develops a RtwP mod somewhere down the line, to satisfy the couple that are upset right now.

[Aria Athena]

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

You just proved that you haven't played Divinity or NWN. Divinity is not an RTwP game.

Oh no, you figured me out . Come on, do you seriously think I haven't played these games¿ Even after I explicitly said I have.

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

I've said that I won't call DA:I CRPG, but rather offline MMO. It's an IMHO.

So it is a crpg according to the community. I know people that strongly disagree with this.

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

It's an acronym which stands for Computer Role Playing Game. To be honest I think it's just a general misunderstanding, and I could be wrong at it too. I don't think it an actual genre, it's just something that could exist in any game that involves role-playing, even in shooters like Borderlands, not a definitive RPG game, but involves role-playing to an extent.

It certainly started as computer rpg, back when it made sense. Now I think it has transformed to classic rpg, which I find vague. Many think being isometric is part of it, but even that term has changed meaning the last 20 years or so and I'm not sure what it represents now. I've witnessed many a disagreement on these forums between people that have different definitions of the terms in their mind.

[rusty_dragon]

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

CRPG is an actual genre. Just like a classical(traditional) RTS, which means C&C-like formula with base-building.

Borderlands is a shooter with RPG elevements. But it's not an RPG. Or Diablo being hack&slash action RPG, but it's not classified as CRPG. Since Diablo doesn't have any roleplaying, it just uses RPG-derived mechanics for the combat.

There is a reason why many refuse to call first The Witcher a CRPG. Because you don't have ability to create own character and roleplay it.

That makes sense, but then it should be called classic not computer. In borderlands you also have the ability to choose and create and develop your own character, play a role, interact with NPCs, do quests, explore, experience a story...

It should not be called like that. Terms not necessary mean literal meaning of words. CRPG are top-down(isometric) roleplaying games with high player agency. They might also be reffered as classical CRPGs. But really CRPG term remained for this sort of games, cause modern 3D (action) RPGs are called RPGs.

[rusty_dragon]

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

"real AI" is a problem of terminology. Reaction/decision making code of NPCs is called AI in video games. Even if it's heavily scripted(called scripted AI). Unless there are no decision making, and it's just a script.

Yes it is called that, but not what it is, intelligence suggests there is consciousness, which isn't the case.

It's a terminology thing. Terminology can also be context-dependent. Where same term can mean different things for different spheres of science or human life.

Like managers overuse platform buzzword nowadays. When we have platfoms in video games. Or for the roof-less tent marketplace a palette is where they put goods on to not place them on the ground. Those palettes are my first association when I hear marketing buzzword platform. :D

[rusty_dragon]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

You just proved that you haven't played Divinity or NWN. Divinity is not an RTwP game.

Oh no, you figured me out . Come on, do you seriously think I haven't played these games¿ Even after I explicitly said I have.

Sure thing. NWN does have a party. :DD

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

I've said that I won't call DA:I CRPG, but rather offline MMO. It's an IMHO.

So it is a crpg according to the community. I know people that strongly disagree with this.

Did I ever said anything different?

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

It's an acronym which stands for Computer Role Playing Game. To be honest I think it's just a general misunderstanding, and I could be wrong at it too. I don't think it an actual genre, it's just something that could exist in any game that involves role-playing, even in shooters like Borderlands, not a definitive RPG game, but involves role-playing to an extent.

It certainly started as computer rpg, back when it made sense. Now I think it has transformed to classic rpg, which I find vague. Many think being isometric is part of it, but even that term has changed meaning the last 20 years or so and I'm not sure what it represents now. I've witnessed many a disagreement on these forums between people that have different definitions of the terms in their mind.

It started as computer RPG, because it was an adaptation of tabletop RPGs. It's not transformed to classic, no. Top-down is in general part of it. As for disagreements on forums - they happen all the time, and not of relevance.

[UnholyDentist]

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

Yes it is called that, but not what it is, intelligence suggests there is consciousness, which isn't the case.

It's a terminology thing. Terminology can also be context-dependent. Where same term can mean different things for different spheres of science or human life.

Like managers overuse platform buzzword nowadays. When we have platfoms in video games. Or for the roof-less tent marketplace a palette is where they put goods on to not place them on the ground. Those palettes are my first association when I hear marketing buzzword platform. :D

That's the problem with buzzwords, they create a diversion from the initial definition of the term and cause commotion, disbelief, incorrect claims. The enemy in these games is not a conscious being, it acts upon pre-set commands and triggered events, nothing intelligence like rather an imitation, but people refer to it as AI, because it's easier than some difficult and longer but actually valid terms. Well that's all fine, you know what it means, I know as well, but not every person shares that knowledge and uses these terms in completely wrong manner. You can see that right? They actually believe that the computer needs more AI in RTwP because it needs to "update" when it "thinks".

[rusty_dragon]

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

It's a terminology thing. Terminology can also be context-dependent. Where same term can mean different things for different spheres of science or human life.

Like managers overuse platform buzzword nowadays. When we have platfoms in video games. Or for the roof-less tent marketplace a palette is where they put goods on to not place them on the ground. Those palettes are my first association when I hear marketing buzzword platform. :D

That's the problem with buzzwords, they create a diversion from the initial definition of the term and cause commotion, disbelief, incorrect claims. The enemy in these games is not a conscious being, it acts upon pre-set commands and triggered events, nothing intelligence like rather an imitation, but people refer to it as AI, because it's easier than some difficult and longer but actually valid terms. Well that's all fine, you know what it means, I know as well, but not every person shares that knowledge and uses these terms in completely wrong manner. You can see that right? They actually believe that the computer needs more AI in RTwP because it needs to "update" when it "thinks".

Now I get your idea.

[offtop]"Platform" buzzword is much more damaging than AI. Now many people start to treat PC not as a personal computer, but as a "platform". As a result I've seen people telling that VR headset, PC periferal, already being reffered as "platform". That's an ill mindshare that allows to sell people closed-ecosystems like consoles or "cloud" gaming and services where you rent computer time instead of owning system and having control over it.[/offtop]

[Beardpick]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

I have no idea what RTwP was fighting for and lost, but I'm not seeing it disappearing. What, was it fighting for survival? It seems to be doing fine really. There have never been many titles, but they have been coming out somewhat consistently. Starting with BG in 1998, because I have played almost none of the earlier ones, here are the ones that I remember to have more or less played.

1998: BG
1999: PT
2000: BG2, IWD
2002: NWN, IWD2, Divine Divinity, Dungeon Siege
2003: Kotor
2004: Beyond Divinity, Kotor2
2005: Dungeon Siege 2
2006: NWN2
2009: Drakensang
2010: DAO
2011: DA2, Drakensang: River of Time
2014: DA:I
2015: PoE, Fall of the Dungeon Guardians, Sword Coast Legends
2016: Tyranny
2018: PoE2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Tower of Time (practically RTwP)
2019: Last Days of Tascaria (this is on my wishlist)
2020: Iron Danger (I have yet to play this too, but I believe it also has an RTwP mechanic)

There is also Arcanum and Fallout Tactics that I think you could play with either TB or RTwP, but I honestly don't remember. Technically you could also pause in Mass Effect to issue orders, but I'm not going to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. I'm tempted though, just to fit in better.

Now I'm waiting on Pathfinder WotR and there is also a DA4 in the not so distant future. Oh yeah, and Black Geyser.

Edit: Forgot Tyranny

Lol, if you are going to mention the Drakensang series, games even most RTwP fans haven't played, then you also have to post that the second game sold so poorly, even though it had better reviews, and was better-received, that it caused the studio to go bankrupt.

Drakensang: The River of Time was received positively in the German press and generally praised as an improvement over the first title.[7] It won the "Best RPG 2010" at the German Developer Awards in Essen, Germany.[8]

However, this second game of the franchise did not fare well financially, and subsequently Radon Labs were declared bankrupt[9] and acquired by Bigpoint Games.[10] The Drakensang brand was then turned into an online browser game franchise, that no longer connects to The Dark Eye franchise.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drakensang:_The_River_of_Time

Obsidian went the same route, had success on the the nostalgia of infinity engine games with PoE, and then saw declining sales and interest with Tyrrany and PoE2. Their options ended up being dissolution or selling themselves to Microsoft to stay afloat.

Nostalgia for isometric RTwP RGPs cannot financially support a development studio.

[Aria Athena]

Beardpick eredeti hozzászólása:

Lol, if you are going to mention the Drakensang series, games even most RTwP fans haven't played, then you also have to post that the second game sold so poorly, even though it had better reviews, and was better-received, that it caused the studio to go bankrupt.

Was it really that funny? This attitude is getting tiresome. I mean, I've played them, why would I not mention them on a list of games I've mostly played? I don't know how any of these games did financially, that's not what the list was about at all. And I don't care if other people know about them. There are way more obscure indie games than those 2 on the list.

I don't know any RTwP fans, why does this keep coming up? I've never been nostalgic for RTwP, I've always had something to play. From the games on my wishlist there are 2 recent ones I have yet to play and 3 that are coming out in the next 3-4 years.

[Beardpick]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

Beardpick eredeti hozzászólása:

Lol, if you are going to mention the Drakensang series, games even most RTwP fans haven't played, then you also have to post that the second game sold so poorly, even though it had better reviews, and was better-received, that it caused the studio to go bankrupt.

Was it really that funny? This attitude is getting tiresome. I mean, I've played them, why would I not mention them on a list of games I've mostly played? I don't know how any of these games did financially, that's not what the list was about at all. And I don't care if other people know about them. There are way more obscure indie games than those 2 on the list.

I don't know any RTwP fans, why does this keep coming up? I've never been nostalgic for RTwP, there was always something to play. From the games on my wishlist there are 2 recent ones I have yet to play and 3 that are coming out in the next 3-4 years. They are still enough of them coming out.

Yeah it is funny to bring up a game from a decade ago, that most games don't even know about, as some sort of proof of the longevity of RTwP as a system that is in high demand.

[UnholyDentist]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

Beardpick eredeti hozzászólása:

Lol, if you are going to mention the Drakensang series, games even most RTwP fans haven't played, then you also have to post that the second game sold so poorly, even though it had better reviews, and was better-received, that it caused the studio to go bankrupt.

Was it really that funny? This attitude is getting tiresome. I mean, I've played them, why would I not mention them on a list of games I've mostly played? I don't know how any of these games did financially, that's not what the list was about at all. And I don't care if other people know about them. There are way more obscure indie games than those 2 on the list.

I don't know any RTwP fans, why does this keep coming up? I've never been nostalgic for RTwP, I've always had something to play. From the games on my wishlist there are 2 recent ones I have yet to play and 3 that are coming out in the next 3-4 years.

Which games do you look forward to?

[rusty_dragon]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

Beardpick eredeti hozzászólása:

Lol, if you are going to mention the Drakensang series, games even most RTwP fans haven't played, then you also have to post that the second game sold so poorly, even though it had better reviews, and was better-received, that it caused the studio to go bankrupt.

Was it really that funny? This attitude is getting tiresome. I mean, I've played them, why would I not mention them on a list of games I've mostly played? I don't know how any of these games did financially, that's not what the list was about at all. And I don't care if other people know about them. There are way more obscure indie games than those 2 on the list.

I don't know any RTwP fans, why does this keep coming up? I've never been nostalgic for RTwP, there was always something to play. From the games on my wishlist there are 2 recent ones I have yet to play and 3 that are coming out in the next 3-4 years. They are still enough of them coming out.

Yes. And what it the theme of this thread?
RTwP can't attract wider audience.

Btw, I see 9 years RIFT between NWN2 and Pillars. Unless you're a fan of Dragon Age.
And it becomes even bigger if you take NWN away. 13 years.

[Aria Athena]

Beardpick eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah it is funny to bring up a game from a decade ago, that most games don't even know about, as some sort of proof of the longevity of RTwP a system that is in high demand.

Why, was BG from 1998 proof of the longevity of RTwP? Was PT from 1999 part of an argument that RTwP are not disappearing? No they weren't. I just constructed a timeline of all the RTwP rpg I remember playing for context. The full picture is needed to see if something is disappearing or not. Well, that's my full picture, these are all the games I have.

If you look closely, before the title of each game you can spot a date. I couldn't have been more simple and transparent if I tried.

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

Which games do you look forward to?

Pathfinder WotR, Black Geyser, which is a promising looking small indie game from a kickstarter, and, although I wouldn't exactly use the term "looking forward", now that Anthem is finished, DA4 is in the horizon.

rusty_dragon eredeti hozzászólása:

Btw, I see 9 years RIFT between NWN2 and Pillars. Unless you're a fan of Dragon Age.
And it becomes even bigger if you take NWN away. 13 years.

I don't think I played anything else other than the games I've listed. Maybe I've missed a couple, but that's it. The whole list is there.

[UnholyDentist]

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

Which games do you look forward to?

Pathfinder WotR, Black Geyse which is a promising looking small indie game from a kickstarter and, although I wouldn't exactly use the term "looking forward", now that Anthem is finished, DA4 is in the horizon.

I feel ya, finally DA4 is back on development track, hopefully EA won't pull the string on Bioware's balls too tight again, and we get what we expect or better.

[rusty_dragon]

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

Aria Athena eredeti hozzászólása:

Pathfinder WotR, Black Geyse which is a promising looking small indie game from a kickstarter and, although I wouldn't exactly use the term "looking forward", now that Anthem is finished, DA4 is in the horizon.

I feel ya, finally DA4 is back on development track, hopefully EA won't pull the string on Bioware's balls too tight again, and we get what we expect or better.

Question is: is there anything left of Bioware?

[Aria Athena]

UnholyDentist eredeti hozzászólása:

I feel ya, finally DA4 is back on development track, hopefully EA won't pull the string on Bioware's balls too tight again, and we get what we expect or better.

Honestly my expectations are pretty low. At this point I'll be happy if I get the same game, but without the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ piece of ♥♥♥♥ wartable.