Turn Based is more tactical than RTwP.

[TrueWarlord真の武]

Turn Based is more tactical than RTwP.

First, it's important to note that the amount of tactics present in a game is a design choice and focus.

It is not inherent of any system, it's a design focus of Developers. There are non tactical TB games, and there are tactical non TB games.

The tactical level in a game is a design choice. Some games are built from scratch with challenge and tactics as the goal. Some other games are designed with other priorities, like story, drama, or action as the main goal.

Now, while we know that tactics and challenge is a design choice and focus, we also must acknowledge that tactical and challenge encounters only makes sense to be design in a system where the player have the ability to actually controll their characters and be abble to beat the challenge.

In the TB system you have full control of all your characters. A super complex and tactical encounter, where a simple step in the wrong direction could mean defeat, can be designed in a TB system, because you're able to control each of your characters steps with precision.

On a RTwP system, even if you pause constantly, you will not be able to perfect control each single step of yours characters, unless you pause the game more than once every second.

That explain why encounters in RTwP games are never deep and tactical as the TB ones are.

Since tactics and challenge is a design focus, and developers already know people would not be able to perfect control all their characters in RTwP, there are no games with tactics and challenge as design focus using the RTwP system. Developers will not pick RTwP system to make a game where perfect control and tactics are required, because the system is not good for this purpose.

There are another huge difference between turn based and RTwP, and it's the movement, you can't move at will in TB the same way you do in RTwP.

RTwP = Free movement.
TB = Moviment is a precious resource.

While RTwP is trying to emulate TB combat, and yours characters will only attack in his specific turn, in a hidden initiative order that you can't react or plan because you don't actually see it, the movement in RTwP is free, and that fact makes RTwP inherently less tactical.

All the above explain why we have TB cRPGs with such a great level of tactics, while we don't have any RTwP one.

------------------------------------

Let us pretend a simple situation and them deep analyze both combat methods.

Your party have a wizard, a cleric, a rogue and a Fighter. While you're traveling, you found 4 bandits, 2 archers and 2 melees, and the combat beggins.

----

RTwP:

Pause. You want your wizard to be free to cast spells, so while the game is paused, you assign your cleric to cast Hold Person in one of the melee bandit, you assign your Fighter to charge the other melee bandit, you assign your rogue to move closer to the archers with cunning action, and you assign your wizard to land a perfect fireball in both melee bandits.

What happens when you unpause? Both your cleric and wizard start to cast their spells. Since movement is free, the melee bandit is already moving in the direction of your wizard while the cleric is still casting Hold Person. When you wizard finishes his Fireball, there are no enemies in the place he casted it anymore...

Also it's important to note that you're not actually "playing" with your characters, you're assign orders and waiting for the AI to do what you asked for.

Turn Base:

Start of the combat. In the Cleric turn, you cast Hold Person in the enemy melee bandit. In the enemy turn, he can't move anymore. In your Fighter turn, you charge the other bandit melee enemy. In your wizard turn, you land a perfect fireball hitting both melee bandits. In your rogue turn, you move him closer to the archers with double speed due to your cunning action ability (now they have disadvantage in their ranged attacks).

Now in Turn Based combat you're in full control of your character actions. It's you playing, it's you attacking each turn, not the AI.

----

Easy to see that Turn based allows for more deep tactical situation, since you have more control of each of your characters turns, and everyone only move and act in his specific turns.

[Sword that Slays Wisdom]

Exactly. If the enemy is reacting to your plans, while you are laying plans, then you can't make plans and execute them with precision. Combat is reduced to a slug-fest, and environmental reactivity and a plethora of verbs need to be removed, because that level of micromanagement is not as probable, or as useful, in realtime combat.

[Coldhands]

Wait, NOT having to account for enemy motion is MORE tactical than needing to plan for it?
I would think the added wrinkle of needing to think about what the enemy is doing would make for a more complex and tactical game. Being able to execute your master plan without interruption by the enemy doesn't actually sound all that challenging or like it requires a lot of thought.

At least it looks like Larian has realized they can't have a four man party in turn based combat without adding some more abilities and options to the classes. It'd be like playing BG1 and 2 turn by turn; it'd be 99% click basic attack, click end turn.

[TrueWarlord真の武]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Wait, NOT having to account for enemy motion is LESS tactical than needing to plan for it?
I would think the added wrinkle of needing to think about what the enemy is doing would make for a more complex and tactical game. Being able to execute your master plan without interruption by the enemy doesn't actually sound all that challenging or like it requires a lot of thought.

At least it looks like Larian has realized they can't have a four man party in turn based combat without adding some more abilities and options to the classes. It'd be like playing BG1 and 2 turn by turn; it'd be 99% click basic attack, click end turn.

Casting a spell to prevent an enemy to get closer to your wizard, while positioning your rogue and fighter in the perfect place, are examples of "NOT having to account for enemy motion" in your opinion? Very strange statement right here.

Are you sure you're not trolling?

[Coldhands]

Originally posted by TrueWarlord真の武:

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Wait, NOT having to account for enemy motion is LESS tactical than needing to plan for it?
I would think the added wrinkle of needing to think about what the enemy is doing would make for a more complex and tactical game. Being able to execute your master plan without interruption by the enemy doesn't actually sound all that challenging or like it requires a lot of thought.

At least it looks like Larian has realized they can't have a four man party in turn based combat without adding some more abilities and options to the classes. It'd be like playing BG1 and 2 turn by turn; it'd be 99% click basic attack, click end turn.

Casting a spell to prevent an enemy to get closer to your wizard, while positioning your rogue and fighter in the perfect place, are examples of "NOT having to account for enemy motion" in your opinion? Very strange statement right here.

Are you sure you're not trolling?

Pretty sure, yeah.
Positioning your fighter and rogue, and casting a targeted spell, is a lot less complicated if you don't need to worry about the enemy moving while you're doing it. It's just fewer variables to deal with when everybody can only move at prescribed and predictable times.

Doesn't make turn based combat worse (I love XCOM), but trying to say it's MORE tactical than real time doesn't sound right to me. I think making a CRPG turn based just makes it easier to play and manage; which isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the game.

[csatrad]

Rofl, OP please. You actually talking our language what we cry out in 50% of the forums. (aparently) that RTwP is a more D&D style of gaming (very good translation of actuall pen and paper gaming with real people), while turn based is a totally GAMEY combat system that only exist in competetive multiplayer (timed) or single player against AI (not timed).

We want BG3 to be like other BG like games, that are like actuall pen and paper gaming sessions that made it popular in the first place. One of the core reasons we grow so much to it.

The "personal" story comes from planing an attack after arguing with the GM about its viability and haveing to be completly botched by a dice roll or another player who meanwhile found some obscure rule in the book and as the players including the GM realized this everyone changes plans on the spot under basicly pause and not after all the npcs move.
Yes youre fireball might miss but thats the stories that you relive in a pub and have a laugh about it and RP the ♥♥♥♥ out of it.

I think Pillar of Eternity and the likes got ungodly borring, and even Divinity suffered of this mid to late game where you got a specific combo the peak of youre targeted build and the most optimal/efficient way of dealing most enemies that you just spam the same ♥♥♥♥ on everyone, start with the same buffs each combat. It got repetitive as ♥♥♥♥.

Baldurs and the like was super cool as the skills were gone once you used them and since you basicly went into every encounter with a bit of different skillset and made you handle even the same enemies differently due to that. Made you think if you pop a buff or not cuz you might need it later in a more difficult fight, you were tasked to think trough if you do prebuffs as you needed every milisecond of time in actual combat to be able to react to it constantly, interupting casts sacrificing its daily use since you had to do something else.

All this and more made every part of D&D a unique and memorable experience. You rememberd this moments. Since all of this is absent in a cooldown based turned based initiative based system they are forced to craft the memorable stories manually and spoon feed you over the shoulder and cinematic fashion.

In BG 2 I had a super memorable moment when I beat 2 different dragons without sleep and headed back to town to sleep and dig trough the loot and mid transit a random group of orcs attacked me. After such victories and already high lvl and geared party I tought I just let the Ai chomp them down even if everyone was out of abilities and spells and had fatigue and guess what. Everyone died. My casts were interupted, my fighters were disabled by a shaman orc, and my healers were zerged by a group of melee. I loaded back ofcourse and wipe the floor with them with proper "tactics" and control and pausing, but still I remeber that, but what I don't remember is 90% of other turned based game fights as 99% of them were copy paste of each other with differend coloured enemies and enviroments.

[TrueWarlord真の武]

Originally posted by Coldhands:

Originally posted by TrueWarlord真の武:

Casting a spell to prevent an enemy to get closer to your wizard, while positioning your rogue and fighter in the perfect place, are examples of "NOT having to account for enemy motion" in your opinion? Very strange statement right here.

Are you sure you're not trolling?

Pretty sure, yeah.
Positioning your fighter and rogue, and casting a targeted spell, is a lot less complicated if you don't need to worry about the enemy moving while you're doing it. It's just fewer variables to deal with when everybody can only move at prescribed and predictable times.

Doesn't make turn based combat worse (I love XCOM), but trying to say it's MORE tactical than real time doesn't sound right to me. I think making a CRPG turn based just makes it easier to play and manage; which isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the game.

There is nothing Tactical about having FREE movement. It only makes spellcaster worse.

If you look at the opposite situation, you will understand the obvious. When you're playing Turn Based, you can't just assign your melees to obliterate the wizard, you need to think about counterspell, and need to build a better party.

Isen't it obvious to you?

If RTwP is more tacical, why people generaly only make whole melee parties (Fighter/Barbarians) with one cleric to heal wounds? LOL

People barely pause the game... Nah, nerfing spellcasting giving melees free movement make the game chaotic. Chaos and tactics don't go along together.

[TrueWarlord真の武]

Originally posted by csatrad:

Rofl, OP please. You actually talking our language what we cry out in 50% of the forums. (aparently) that RTwP is a more D&D style of gaming (very good translation of actuall pen and paper gaming with real people), while turn based is a totally GAMEY combat system that only exist in competetive multiplayer (timed) or single player against AI (not timed).

We want BG3 to be like other BG like games, that are like actuall pen and paper gaming sessions that made it popular in the first place. One of the core reasons we grow so much to it.

The "personal" story comes from planing an attack after arguing with the GM about its viability and haveing to be completly botched by a dice roll or another player who meanwhile found some obscure rule in the book and as the players including the GM realized this everyone changes plans on the spot under basicly pause and not after all the npcs move.
Yes youre fireball might miss but thats the stories that you relive in a pub and have a laugh about it and RP the ♥♥♥♥ out of it.

I think Pillar of Eternity and the likes got ungodly borring, and even Divinity suffered of this mid to late game where you got a specific combo the peak of youre targeted build and the most optimal/efficient way of dealing most enemies that you just spam the same ♥♥♥♥ on everyone, start with the same buffs each combat. It got repetitive as ♥♥♥♥.

Baldurs and the like was super cool as the skills were gone once you used them and since you basicly went into every encounter with a bit of different skillset and made you handle even the same enemies differently due to that. Made you think if you pop a buff or not cuz you might need it later in a more difficult fight, you were tasked to think trough if you do prebuffs as you needed every milisecond of time in actual combat to be able to react to it constantly, interupting casts sacrificing its daily use since you had to do something else.

All this and more made every part of D&D a unique and memorable experience. You rememberd this moments. Since all of this is absent in a cooldown based turned based initiative based system they are forced to craft the memorable stories manually and spoon feed you over the shoulder and cinematic fashion.

In BG 2 I had a super memorable moment when I beat 2 different dragons without sleep and headed back to town to sleep and dig trough the loot and mid transit a random group of orcs attacked me. After such victories and already high lvl and geared party I tought I just let the Ai chomp them down even if everyone was out of abilities and spells and had fatigue and guess what. Everyone died. My casts were interupted, my fighters were disabled by a shaman orc, and my healers were zerged by a group of melee. I loaded back ofcourse and wipe the floor with them with proper "tactics" and control and pausing, but still I remeber that, but what I don't remember is 90% of other turned based game fights as 99% of them were copy paste of each other with differend coloured enemies and enviroments.

"RTwP is a more D&D style of gaming... while turn based is a totally GAMEY combat system that only exist in competetive multiplayer".

Do you know that people play Tabletop RPG D&D since 1974 using turns, right? Have you ever played real tabletop D&D?

LMAO, please don't embarrass yourself.

[AsianGirlLover]

It’s simple, really. TB allows you more control than RTwP.

One lets you take the time to think critically of every possible option of attack, while the other forces you to watch AI poke one another while you occasionally pause to issue commands.

[AsianGirlLover]

Originally posted by nakoda:

Originally posted by AsianGirlLover:

It’s simple, really. TB allows you more control than RTwP.

One lets you take the time to think critically of every possible option of attack, while the other forces you to watch AI poke one another while you occasionally pause to issue commands.

This is literally not possible.

Turn based does not give you more control than real time games, by definition, your abilities in turn based are fixed, and unavailable when it is not your turn (this is taking away control).

real time gives you immediate control over EVERYTHING.

sorry, but you are wrong.

Depending on how you make your build, you could definitely have control over everything.

It’s called having high initiative, sneak skills, prepping the battlefield, and using skills that give bonus action points.

[dulany67]

TB is both easier and more tactical. Easier because you are much more efficient positioning and using abilities. Tactical because you actually use your abilities instead letting your guys auto attack as much as possible because you get tired of hitting the pause button.

One thing though, encounter design tends to be much better in TB, with a lot fewer trash encounters.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by nakoda:

Originally posted by AsianGirlLover:

It’s simple, really. TB allows you more control than RTwP.

One lets you take the time to think critically of every possible option of attack, while the other forces you to watch AI poke one another while you occasionally pause to issue commands.

This is literally not possible.

Turn based does not give you more control than real time games, by definition, your abilities in turn based are fixed, and unavailable when it is not your turn (this is taking away control).

real time gives you immediate control over EVERYTHING.

sorry, but you are wrong.

I think what he meant was that every step your characters do is in fact controlled by you in TB, in real time you are watching automatic moves made by each of your character and you simply issue your spells in between those automatic moves or wait for an action from your enemy to react. Off course, there is also pause to force your actions to be executed with less delay (from clicking on icons etc.).

[csatrad]

Originally posted by TrueWarlord真の武:

"RTwP is a more D&D style of gaming... while turn based is a totally GAMEY combat system that only exist in competetive multiplayer".

Do you know that people play Tabletop RPG D&D since 1974 using turns, right? Have you ever played real tabletop D&D?

LMAO, please don't embarrass yourself.

Just tell me a single story where you didn't took into account of what happened to others in the same turn that get to act before you. If you would trully play by the "turned base" rule what you preach then youre character should not be aware of what happened to others then mysticly go back in time to the beginning of the same turn and knowing what will happen do something else.
It was in fact a continous real time sequence of events that happened one after another with pauses betwean each action taken to think trough what to do with the next character in line in regards of what already happened "in the same turn".

If you look at it without a blindfold you realize it is all one big real time event with pauses GASP!

Seroiusly it might be my opinion and own definition I get that, but still the only actual turned base game would be where you give command to all youre units and hit the end turn that executes all preassigned actions togather, while the enemy either doing the same and it will only go once both side finished issuing commands or it goes me go you go style but only allows one action to be taken like chess. Everything else is just pauses in real time.

[Aria Athena]

This has honestly gotten tiresome at this point. People just make random bs about the combat style they don't like playing. You are trying too hard to justify why your preference is better.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by nakoda:

Originally posted by Sheltz:

I hate people who keep spreading toxicity in every threads, I respect people who dont like the game but can actually explain politely their reasons.
It's too easy to say: omg art is bad, no RTwP no buy, environment is too bright (spells in BG 1 and 2 looked like a rainbow) and some other nonsense.

expressing opinions is not by nature toxic.

what makes the threads toxic is how the Larian Fan Brigade runs around telling everyone who doesn't like the game that they are trolls/zealots/sociopaths/etc.

what i hate is people defending this kind of behaviour.

Pretty much all sorts of people burn others, not only "Larian fans". There are wrongdoers on each side imo.

[UnholyDentist]

Originally posted by nakoda:

Originally posted by UnholyDentist:

Pretty much all sorts of people burn others, not only "Larian fans". There are wrongdoers on each side imo.

of course there are. you need not pretend to be innocent, i've read your posts and you are one of the people who calls others zealots.

Never said I was innocent, but tbh (or at least in my opinion) those terms were valid placements not just randomly spitting rage at others.