Dragonborn, Race Choice, and Demographics

[AuldWolf]

It seems as though Larian has lost the core demographic of Baldur's Gate. That's intriguing. I think it's really important for them to consider how to reach out to other demographics to fill in the gap if that's the case.

I feel that by and large D&D's contemporary races are a poor imitation of what was once on offer and that's a fantastic place to begin. There are various ways for a game to see sustainable profit over time and one of them is to tap the vast seas of underserved, starved demographics with excesses of money, an understanding of the value of money, and very little that caters to them which they might spend that money on.

The Dragonborn, for example, are a folly. They lose out on important key demographics by lacking a tail, for starters, but also by having overall less of an interesting visual aesthetic to them. The best thing Dragonborn brough to the table was their odd tentacle hair, which I've seen gain popularity in art communities, but for the most part I find that the reaction to them is a sea of disappointment at the absence of tails and wings.

I think it's important to have a good selection of races because that way you can ensure that you are tapping those demographics and bringing in their money. As a point I've brought up elsewhere, Zootopia was such a resounding and unexpected success that it managed to terrify even Disney enough to be cautious with how they proceed. They've got two sequels and a TV show currently in the works but they're being very hush-hush about it. I could've told them that it would be a success, though. It hits on the wealthy furry and otherkin demos who have money to spare.

I think not many marketing departments are savvy enough to these underserved demographics—not even at Disney, of all places—and this brings the product into a place where it's vying against millions of other products aimed at the most normal, generic demographics. Unless you possess a marketing department that's beyond reporach, it's profoundly unlikely you'll succeed within that space. This is why it's so important for smaller developers (indie and AA alike) to understand this.

Of course, furry and otherkin are just two untapped demographics, there are plenty of others out there as well. It's just something I think ought to be considered when choosing the playable races on offer. With the furry and otherkin demographics you have bankers, chemists, politicians, realtors, and other high-paying jobs with more money than they know what to do with, yet with nothing to spend it on. This is why the furry and otherkin communities attract artists and then keep them afloat with that money alone. Do you realise how many artists have quit professional illustration and animation jobs just to be funded by commissions? It's astounding.

This is a message I really want to get out there because I see so many smaller developers targeting the most normal demographics and then struggling because of what they're competing against. Those demographics are spoilt for choice, and with that much to buy there's far less money in the pool to go around, it's really important to be able to attract others with far more money and far less choice.

I've always felt bad about any developer shackled with the Dragonborn because they generally aren't well liked. They're a poor man's Draconian or Dragonkin, and Draconians/Dragonkin are still adored by many. They've the tail and wings that make for a dragon.

I suppose the reason I'm bringing this up is because in one of Larian's prior games, Divinity: Original Sin II, they were clever enough to make lizards playable. I know that sold that game to me. I also know that sold it to many others whom I converse wtih regularly. The lizards were a resounding success, even more so after they had other faces added. I feel Larian might have seen even more profit if they were willing to diversify the kinds of face and appearance that lizards could have but they at least managed to draw attention from far more profitable demographics with that choice.

What I'm saying then is that perhaps if you've managed to alienate the core demographic for Baldur's Gate, look at the rulebooks and see what races you could include that will target these untapped demographics.

And here's a little hint from me that will basically quintuple your revenue: Toss out an unofficial mod that adds tails to the Dragonborn. Trust me on this, it's going to make a big difference. Just take a look at Crytpic's Neverwinter MMO to see how many are saying they'd play it if the Dragonborn had tails. I count myself among them, I'd give it the old college try as well if that were indeed the case. If nothing else, Cryptic would make a solid chunk of change from people like myself were they able to do so.

The problem is? Cryptic has an MMO, so it would be really difficult to release a mod to change the Dragonborn there to what everyone wants them to be. However... you're making a modifiable single- and multiplayer game. You're far more open to doing this.

Even if you don't add any other races, at least do that. Trust me on this, Larian.

Footnote: Also, if you ever bother with Dragon Commander 2, make it more about actually flying around on the dragon rather than shoehorning it into an exceptionally poor RTS that no one wanted (look at the Steam reviews). That's what everyone wanted from the Kickstarter, we're still waiting for a good dragon game from you yanno. I know that's unlikely but I can dream.

[Old Cat 🐱]

I dunno, you can't expect finished character creation in pre alpha.

[AuldWolf]

@Old Cat

Oh, I'm not making any demands. It's just advice. I mean, at the very least, the Dragonborn could attract more profit but... oh, that lack of tails. I'm sure that they can't change that officially due to Wizards. Unofficially, though? I'd say go for it.

[Old Cat 🐱]

I mean, maybe it actually will have a tail, it's just not ready yet.

[Hobocop]

Unfortunately, they won't, because in official lore they are tailless.

Dragonborn have always struck me as a missed opportunity as they stand currently. Such a cool concept held back by lackluster mechanics and a frankly unfulfilling visual design.

There's a reason why I just outright steal how Lizards from D:OS2 look when concepting Dragonborn characters. And why there is so much commissioned artwork of Dragonborn with tails.

[KaffeeRausch]

I hope if you incorporate dragonborns into the game, not just copy the lizards from Divinity Original Sin 1 to 1.

They already looked scary, I think you can do it better if I see something like this in a close-up in conversation dialogues.

It is definitely difficult for the conversations to get the movement right with such a non-human body shape.

Hopefully they will take the trouble ..


On Google Images you can see cool Dragonborne Concept images, even if it is irritating that the turns have tails and wings ... and sometimes not.


If their method is to make the dragon's borehole look good by making a human head like a lizard princess lawyer from Dragon Commander with lizard tails and legs .... then I fall dead into the food ...

[Moonica]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Unfortunately, they won't, because in official lore they are tailless.

Dragonborn have always struck me as a missed opportunity as they stand currently. Such a cool concept held back by lackluster mechanics and a frankly unfulfilling visual design.

There's a reason why I just outright steal how Lizards from D:OS2 look when concepting Dragonborn characters. And why there is so much commissioned artwork of Dragonborn with tails.

This is incorrect they added another Type of dragonborn that includes tails

[branmakmuffin]

If any post cries out in terror for a tl;dr, it's the OP. If the OP is saying that Dragonborn are connected to the the "core demographic" of Baldur's Gate (whatever that is), he's either trolling or seriously deluded. I did see a line about Dragonborn being what everyone wants them to be. They currently are what everyone wants them to be in BG3: not in it.

[Cyroy]

Why can't this forum be normal?

[PickleRick]

Originally posted by Cyroy:

Why can't this forum be normal?

Living in a basement is the same as getting 3 Xray's a year.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I agree that Draconians were the coolest.

[KaffeeRausch]

Originally posted by Tinball:

I disagree that they are "poor imitation of what was once on offer."

Dragonborn were not part of the core demographic of Baldur's Gate, ever.

They just recently buffed up Dragonborn in a recent UA:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/990-revisiting-the-dragonborn-with-new-lineages-from

-They've made the breath weapon more frequent and powerful:
-The damage dealt by breath weapons has increased. ...
-Breath weapons can now be used a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, with uses refreshing on a long rest. ...
-Breath weapons can now be used as part of an Attack action.

The new Fizban's guide adds more Bloodlines and Subs and well as draconic magic...

https://blackcitadelrpg.com/fizbans-dragonborns/#:~:text=Fizban's%20Treasury%20of%20Dragons%20introduces,let%20the%20repetition%20fool%20you.

A revision was somehow necessary, compared to other races they were bad.

I'm still worried that they'll look like Cthulhu monsters when they come into play.

The original concepts were very weird.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonborn

There aren't many images/concepts to see where I think "I'm not going to immediately lump such a humanoid in a drawer with orcs and kill them for the sake of it".