Larian is going to ruin it (Long post)

[Alleluja2000]

Ok, so here is unpopular opinion - D:OS games were great successors to Ultima series but were nothing like Infinity Engine games.
And here are my problems and issues with Larian making Baldur's Gate 3:

Writing - Larian NEVER made a good written games. Only Divine Divinity and to some extent Beyond Divinity were more mature stories. Rest of the games... all of them... had subpar writing and filled with humour and tongue'in'cheek feeling.
Nothing wrong with that but I have my worries about sequel to one of the best written and paced RPGs of all time being made by a sudio with very poor track record in terms of writing.

Pre-made characters - So anyone who played D:OS2 knows that it came with bunch of pre-made characters with their own "origin" stories and ability to make character from scratch intead. Sounds cool? Well... It wasn't. Not only custom made characters suffered by fewer quests, worse voice acting, less connections to the world but also, those pre-made characters served as you companions. In short - Choosing to create your own charactes was punished by not having as much content as playing as one of the characters created by the devs. Now imagine Baldur's Gate 2 with that system... Forget creating your "own" Bhaalspawn... Instead you have to play as either Minsc or Jaheira or Jan Jansen etc. from their point of view...

COOP focused - Larian already confirmed COOP in BG3. Cool, first two games also had coop so nothing wrong with that as an option... AS AN OPTION. Again - D:OS2 singleplayer suffered a lot by having coop. It was already confirmed by RPS interview with Larian that now, instead of one BIG HERO, all party are heroes. Sooooo.... Forget about "new bhaalspawn", now entire team will be made out from heroes with equal awesomness etc. Why? I presume that because Larian will, once again, create Origin Characters like they did in D:OS2. So instead of creating custom party in order to play coop players will choose different companions and take their actions.
So once again... Imagine Minsc being not an awesome, cult classic NPC that joins you but might leave you if you are an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Nope, this time you can PLAY as him but also one of your mate can play as him. (Shallowing the experience of single player campaign)

Engine - this one is subjective af but after seeing how AMAZING PoE: Deadfire looks with hand painted 2d backgrounds I'd love to see this way of creating graphics but it's gonna be build on D:OS/D:OS2 engine instead. Again - HUGLY subjective, so that's just my taste.



Combat and stats - So yeah... Combat in D:OS games was awesome because it fit the world and it gave you abilities to "break the game" in various ways. But I expect NOTHING like that from D'n'D game. I want numbers and stats to matter, I want to spend 4h creating my character rather than choosing one, made by the devs. I want to find that one, special, amazing piece of armor/weapon at the end of this dungeon/quest with amazing stats and bonuses rather than having tons of ♥♥♥♥ items that have no lore, no good stats etc. (and MY LORD did D:OS games had terrible itemization)





Sorry for the long rant. I'll be downvoted to all seven hells but even tho I liked many franchises Baldur's Gate is the only one that I love. I'm 30, I've seen Fallout being shallowed by Bethesda, I've seen Neverwinter turned into MMO I've seen so many legendary franchises being dumb down with casual features thrown on them with hope to appeal to the masses.
The only time I've seen BG magic was with Pillars of Eternity but now, knowing that Larian is doing BG3... I'm just pesymistic about the future of my beloved franchise.

[shadeling]

I'm just happy it's Larian that got this franchise, at least for installment 3, and not Bethesda who would have gleefully run it into the ground with banal mediocrity like they did the Fallout franchise.

[Crystal]

Reading on the BeamDog website, they are all for Larian for some reason.
The community moderator's excuse is gaming is advancing too quickly for them to do it and someone else mentioned how Larian have 300 people working for them.\



I can get on board if they dont make this game rtetarded.
But you have all these twitter posts (posted in defense of larian's horrible jokes games) saying "what about noober?!!!" and other little silly bits in Baldur's Gate.
I dont see how one npc equates to the actual gameplay being silly

引用自 hybridial：

OP, if it helps, I would not downvote you. I think everything you said is on point, every single thing.

I think if anyone here things Larian are really that eminently qualified to make this game, they never played Baldur's Gate or they didn't play enough of Original Sin 1 and 2 to see why there's so very little to suggest they should be making it.

And people have argued "well who else?" I'd take Beamdog making it in the Infinity engine, maybe, but outside of that, I'd say "well maybe it shouldn't be made and this game, should just not be called Baldur's Gate 3".

[Wilk]

引用自 Hyriu：

"I want to spend 4h creating my character rather than choosing one, made by the devs"
Hell Yeah

Simply put Larian cant made BG3 as they did Divinities games theres huge difference yet hope is still high

You are joking, right? All you could "customize" in BG series was race, gender, portrait, class, "alignment" and the color of the pixels that would represent your character. Stats were literally dice rolling and then distributing the score, and classes were set. You could multi-class but that's not truly customizing your character.

In divinity you could do all of that, but still pick your starting skills and mix with skills from other classes, in case you wanted. How is that not customizing your character even more?

And honestly, turn-based represents D&D combat system MUCH better than real-time with pause. Since you get the roll for initiative to define who goes when, and etc. Things you didn't have with real-time with pause. It was based on "attacks per round" and the whatnot.
Not saying it wasn't fun. It was. Just that turn-based is a better match for D&D wich is what they are aiming to reproduce. Even if this is Baldurs Gate, a computer game, you need still need to remember this is a game set in the world and lore of D&D and BY D&D.

[Mich-666]

引用自 Brain Lasers：

Reading on the BeamDog website, they are all for Larian for some reason. The community moderator's excuse is gaming is advancing too quickly for them to do it and someone else mentioned how Larian have 300 people working for them.

Well, it's obvious it will boost the sales of their enhanced editions dramaticaly, and the same aplies to the prequel D&D module Descent into Avernus that Hasbro is rolling out in September.

Other than that, they already had their chance and they ruined it. If Siege of Dragonspear was anywhere close to being competent game and not such disappointment it would be them who were doing Baldur's Gate 3 today.

[indio68]

i think Laria is the best optiona nd decision to make a new BG game. Period

[Crystal]

All I care about is
.seriousness
.customizing
.loads of hidden quests
.gore
.not being a poorly in 3d. Its SO EASY to mess up 3d.

If they can step out of their comfort zone then yeah, Its probably going to be awesome.
But I fear they will fail at dialog and gameplay style miserably.

If its good, I'll give them up to $400 on whatever micro-DLCs they can come out with.
But It sucks having to watch twitch and see if the game is any good before I buy it.
Wish I could just trust them on it.

[Alleluja2000]

引用自 Hostlean：

(...) They are good but playing them in todays standarts giving me pain. Larian Studios has a success in this genre. If you want your old Baldur's Gate it can't happen anyway. They will change its fabric. They will change its gameplay. They can't make the same type of game from past. I think all of your concerns are subjective. You want your old game and it won't happen (I think you know this).(...).

I agree to some extent. For example how both BG1 and 2 lacked balance in terms of builds. In BG1 playing as mage was really hard. Irony was that in BG2 magic characters were OP as hell.
But those issues were actually adressed by Obsidian in PoE. IMO the only games ever made that captured true depth of BG plot and complexity of character builds and D'n'D inspired combat. But well... Josh Sawyer - lead designer of PoE is former Black Isle designer so he knows isometric games better than any dev I can think of.

引用自 Petch：

Very fair concerns
It probably shouldn't have been BG3 (there's no continuation anyway) - just a fresh Forgotten Realms game by Larian

Agree 100%! I'd love a fresh take on Forgotten Realms by Larian! They are great studio but I just can't think of them not messing up with BG.



[quote=Dawn²;1642039362994046404Badlur's Gate is a darker type of fantasy..the vibe, the graphic style shouldn't be like DD, so i hope they won't make the mistake to re-use their engine. They should also hire some writers.
because i can't say their main plot or side quest..made a real impact on me.

Yet, 20 years later i can remember almost every quest of BG/BG2/ToB.
[/quote]

Yup. That's my biggest fear. Pillars of Eternity 1/2 and Kingmaker showed me that it's possible to make hardcore isometric RPG that still can appeal to masses that is HUGLY inspired by Baldur's Gate.
D:OS 1 and 2 were mostly a new take on Ultima 7 formula of "having fun with the game systems" rather than telling an epic story. That's even confirmed by CEO of Larian. (the inspirations of Ultima 7)
And that's true. D:OS games are great for making fun with gameplay mechanics and playing around but Baldur's Gate were HUUUUUGE games where player was exploring massive amount of world (and underworld;)) with dark tone, amazing quests and great pacing.

引用自 Mich-666：

I like to meet my NPCs naturally as I play the game, not all at the beginning. Baldur's gate was always about managing your party, while doing their quests and keeping them happy. If every party member is now playable, it takes a lot of fun from the original and it actually limits the storytelling because some key NPCs' decisions would be decided by player-choice.

Yup! This sooo much! Divinity: Original Sin 2 companions were lifeless for me because I knew thay are just pre-planned avatars for myself rather than fully fleshed out characters. Not to mention that creating your own, custom made character, put you in disadvantage by locking some quests for you.
Bhaalspawn was always, ALWAYS designed to be... Well... You. The player. It was an epic story of one hero and his/her friends and their personal stories.

And even then they still managed to make it playable via COOP. But in better way than Larian with their approach of "making all character in party equaly important. All characters are heroes"
I mean... Wth?!

引用自 TimidObserver：

I haven't been following the news. I didn't know that they announced pre-made characters for BG3?

Yup, pretty much.
https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-3-will-combine-the-best-of-divinity-and-dandd-5th-edition/
Larian CEO thinks that it was great idea and he want's that back in BG3.

引用自 hybridial：

OP, if it helps, I would not downvote you. I think everything you said is on point, every single thing.

Thanks mate.

引用自 GutãoXIII：

You are joking, right? All you could "customize" in BG series was race, gender, portrait, class, "alignment" and the color of the pixels that would represent your character. Stats were literally dice rolling and then distributing the score, and classes were set. You could multi-class but that's not truly customizing your character.

In divinity you could do all of that, but still pick your starting skills and mix with skills from other classes, in case you wanted. How is that not customizing your character even more?

And honestly, turn-based represents D&D combat system MUCH better than real-time with pause. Since you get the roll for initiative to define who goes when, and etc. Things you didn't have with real-time with pause. It was based on "attacks per round" and the whatnot.
Not saying it wasn't fun. It was. Just that turn-based is a better match for D&D wich is what they are aiming to reproduce. Even if this is Baldurs Gate, a computer game, you need still need to remember this is a game set in the world and lore of D&D and BY D&D.

Having character class "set in stone" is IMO way better than allowing to fiddle around however you like. It limits replayability knowing that I can respec and reset my entire chracter even after 20h of gameplay.
Not to mention you don't really change your warrior into the wizard mid way D'n'D campaign.

About RTwP and Turn Based - Why not both? Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire is a living proof that you can have both. But hell, I'd even agree that turn based is much more in line with D'n'D (and good lord - Temple of Elemental Evil had the best combat in D'n'D game ever IMO - and it was turn based)
But turn based or not - that's not my issue with Larian combat. Larian designed combat in D:OS games around world physics and puzzle like approach rather than focused on stats and items. Like I mentioned before - Itemization in D:OS games were terrible. Almost no weapons had any meaning to them and each one felt like some random loot in aRPG.


So to close this (2nd) rant.
I like Larian. I like them very much. I played Divine Divinity on release all those years ago and I enjoyed all of their games.
But because I'm familiar with ALL theirs games I also know that they are way more focused on "gamey" stuff like playing around with game physics, light humour, easy to get gameplay etc rather than on good story, lore, characters, deep gameplay mechanics etc.
Their track record shows that they are awesome at creating entry level RPGs with fun but rather small worlds, easy to follow rules etc. And now they are more focused on COOP rather than proper, deep Single Player experience and player choices. And there is nothing wrong with that but... Well... I just know now how it felt for Fallout fans that your beloved franchise will change into something completly different.

But hey, who knows... Maybe Obsidian will step up someday and save BG with some swan song game, just like they did when they made amazing New Vegas.

Sorry again for another long post. And thank You for all Your thoughts guys.

[Aly]

引用自 JBrown247：

Cant do any worse than the SJW losers over at beamdog.

Pretty much.

Also why the ♥♥♥♥ is everybody thinking this game is gonna be a DOS2 copy paste?

[Blynky]

"Writing - Larian NEVER made a good written games."

You can't even write the first sentence properly, while complaining about their writing. This must be a joke post. :p

[TimidObserver]

引用自 Alleluja2000：

引用自 TimidObserver：

I haven't been following the news. I didn't know that they announced pre-made characters for BG3?

Yup, pretty much.

Well the article specifically states that it's not confirmed.

That said, I don't dislike the idea of origin story system as a whole. However, if they do go this approach, I hope that it's closer to Dragon Age's origin system than Divinity's Origin System.

[hybridial]

引用自 Aly：

Also why the ♥♥♥♥ is everybody thinking this game is gonna be a DOS2 copy paste?

Because until we're given reason to think otherwise, there's no other realistic stance to take, I mean that game sold really well, it's what Larian know, and its human nature to stick with what works even when its plain its not going to this time around.

[Buddusky]

A fukken assumption thread out of the ars.e of the OP's can not get any more biased personality, not worth to read it, ever.

[Kozzy]

Horrible thread, already has made his mind up on the game.. that Larian will destroy it.

[TastyThai]

"But that's terrible new IMO. The entire point of Bhallspawn in BG saga was the fact that he/she was a vessel - For You, the player. Pre-made characters in D:OS2 had their own moods, characters, traits etc. So instead of playing "you" you were playing someone else. It's great for games like Witcher but for Baldur's Gate? Hell no!"

The entire point of D&D tabletop pen and paper version which spawned BG1 and BG2 is to play any character. You are NOT limited to playing yourself. Sometimes you do, mostly at the start when you are inexperienced at game. Later on you start to play character with different world views and ideologies than yourself. Characters that do things in the game you would never do yourself.

Playing someone else is part of D&D. Imo your arguement is invalid as you can easily just make your own character. You are not forced to play the pregenerated ones. But let me say, you are missing out on some awesome fun by not playing the RPG. Making character choices based on the character, and not on yourselves often lead you to hidden gems and engaging stories you would never experience sticking to your min/max stealth archer (it's hyperbole to make a point, not to trigger snowflakes).

TLDR - Premade characters does in no way force you to play someone you dont want to play in Orignal sin 2.

Fite me for Khaleesi

[Hawke]

Agreed with the OP on all points.

Personally, BG:EE (1&2&expansions) were more interesting and engaging, than D:OS1-2 (skipped the EEs), despite their age. The characters were less shallow, the systems were more clear (HLAs still were pretty OP, though), the equipment had lore attached to it, and BG had such a modern and amazing function as pause, which was missing in both D:OS (it might seem a minor thing, it shows that MP was the priority and SP an afterthought).

The only thing I'm unsure of is THAC0. But the later editions don't use it, so it shouldn't appear.