Mid to late game balance: silenced sniper simulator

[Caperook]

Having just finished the game, I am left with mixed feelings. On one hand, this game is massive and vibrant, with lots of choices, quests and financial decisions.

On the other hand, there is combat. And combat-wise, the dominating meta-strategy is equipping eeryone in your squad with silenced snipers and ignoring everythinbg else (save maybe for one blade weapon user and a machine gun user for cover).

The devs stated in one of the interviews that they intended to give the game a "play by feel" style like an emergent war sim as opposed to a combat puzzler (whee players attempt to optimize their turns to perfection). To that end, for example, they decided to turn off the successful shot chance indicator from the game.

However, there is absolutely no incentive to invest in anything but stealth and sniper rifles, as automatic weapons just do not do enough damage, in addition to penalties to burst and auto fire (lower hit chance, lower damage, more ammo spent, LOWER DAMAGE).

IMHO, this greatly hurts the replayability of the game. I have just started a second campaign, and despite hiring an entirely different team of starting mercs, I know for a fact what their loadout is going to look like 10 hours into the game from now. I know exactly what actions I will be making at the start of each and every combat encounter, and this is not for the lack of imagination - it is because any other set of actions and strategies will be orders of magnitude less effective.

The reviewer I like wrote in theri article that they ended up assembling a sniper team towards the end of their playthrough. I ended up assembling a sniper team. The majority of other commenters in the discussions stated that they assembled a sniper team. YOU will assemble a sniping team during the next playthrough.

It really pains me to say this, but in a game all about management and tactical choices, there is a glaring lack of options tactics-wise. Choose sniper or choose wrong.

That said, however, I'd like to end this on a positive note. The game is beautiful, deep and extremely fun in all other regards. If you are reading this before bying the game, it is definitely worth the buy - just know that your first playthrough will inevitably end up a sniper run. Or end early :)

On the off chance that the devs might see this post -- thank you. I am a fan of the previous JA games, and so are you (judging by the dev diaries and interviews). Truly, thank you for bringing us this awesome continuation of the series.
But every weapon besides sniper rifles and maybe HMGs needs uptuning to be viable.

[sandman25dcsss]

There are Steam mods which boost burst and autofire damage

[AMOUNT]

i did not finish my first run yet, but i have the same story to tell "sniperteam" i think the game needs some balancing and love and i think with a community only half as dedicated as the ja2 community it will happen.

[AMOUNT]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

There are Steam mods which boost burst and autofire damage

a game should be fun even without mods!

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by AMOUNT:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

There are Steam mods which boost burst and autofire damage

a game should be fun even without mods!

Balanced yes, fun no.
Different players have different preferences so fun is subjective

[Lightning]

I'd hate to be a sniper in those close quarter instant combats though especially underground where they tend to miss forever, but yeah all in all seems the sneak sniper is best in game

[Dorok]

There isn't even need to use silencers, nor to wait mid game, stealth and long range, is quickly becoming half op at least in combats where it's possible. And at night/fog/rain it's easier despite the range penalty on hit chance.

Or mid game is merc level 2. You only need find some rifle longer range, SR isn't even required.

So yeah there's a hole here, that said just use it a few time and it's fun, for more try something else until the dev tune that.

[Caperook]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

There are Steam mods which boost burst and autofire damage

Thanks! I am aware of that and am planning to give them a go. However, I have some reservations about mods of such kind, as flat increase of stats without any drawbacks feels a little too close to using a cheat code or a console command. I'd like to see the devs implement a solution organically, as weapons balance affects other systems of the game (ammo costs, weapons condition, stealth etc.) I have enough good faith after my first campaign to believe that the devs are able to do a better job on this problem in the long run compared to slapping a patch on a wound (a role mods usually play in such cases).

Furthermore, while the mods may solve my personal problem with the game and make for a better campaign, the larger problem will still persist: tactical options in mid to late game are seriously limited (and need to be imported from third party sources like mods). Which is, you know, something the devs should be at least made aware of.

[Caperook]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by AMOUNT:

a game should be fun even without mods!

Balanced yes, fun no.
Different players have different preferences so fun is subjective

Well, that's the point, isn't it?
Everyone has different preferences, but only snipa lovas are getting their preferences catered to in this meta.

Luckily, I am a die-hard snipa lova, so I immensly enjoyed the campaign. Doing that again, however, is a little discouraging.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Caperook:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

There are Steam mods which boost burst and autofire damage

Thanks! I am aware of that and am planning to give them a go. However, I have some reservations about mods of such kind, as flat increase of stats without any drawbacks feels a little too close to using a cheat code or a console command. I'd like to see the devs implement a solution organically, as weapons balance affects other systems of the game (ammo costs, weapons condition, stealth etc.) I have enough good faith after my first campaign to believe that the devs are able to do a better job on this problem in the long run compared to slapping a patch on a wound (a role mods usually play in such cases).

Furthermore, while the mods may solve my personal problem with the game and make for a better campaign, the larger problem will still persist: tactical options in mid to late game are seriously limited (and need to be imported from third party sources like mods). Which is, you know, something the devs should be at least made aware of.

It's even the wrong "fix" because the problem is stealth/sniper is op, make op other weapons won't fix anything.

[Black Hammer]

I remain confused as to why games want to put taxes on automatic weapons fire. Here we have ammo costs, accuracy penalties, and perks needed to mitigate high AP costs.

The reason automatic weapons get used to spray bullets is because that approach is idiot friendly, as opposed to precision marksmanship.

[sandman25dcsss]

Yes, I hope devs will do something about it, mods to fix balance issues should be just temporary solutions.

[Rampage]

seems they hardly spend any time on balancing

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Caperook:

Luckily, I am a die-hard snipa lova, so I immensly enjoyed the campaign. Doing that again, however, is a little discouraging.

Challenge, replay without using any SR. :-)

But for me AR with longer range, 23/24, and stealth are OP holes too, and need a tuning.

[Caperook]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by Caperook:

Luckily, I am a die-hard snipa lova, so I immensly enjoyed the campaign. Doing that again, however, is a little discouraging.

Challenge, replay without using any SR. :-)

But for me AR with longer range, 23/24, and stealth are OP holes too, and need a tuning.

That's the thing, though. I intend to do that in my campaign. But the difficulty and possible complications of other strategies are in a different league entirely. Which is not that bad per se, but this game is about management and gunning for best outcomes - and there is a stone-set path to a best outcome. Playing sub-optimally makes for a fun challenge / playthrough, But it does no make the game itself more fun.

[Teufels Beitrag]

Just a question: does using extra penetrating ammo help?