Quick combat guide (and why burst fire is useful)

[wayne]

How 2 combat:

Assuming you aren't save-scumming with a perfect headshot sniper squad,

- It's very difficult to get clear of the enemy and not take hits. The 'ideal' setup mid-combat, is having all/most of your squad retreat to 'take cover' to carry over AP before countering. This way when you are shot, you usually won't even be wounded. This is also why high health mercs are useful.

- When the AI is taking cover, you can use shotguns to 'expose' them. This is dangerous for the same reason you use it, so it's sometimes important to interrupt it.

- If you don't have a kill shot or can't get away from a scary enemy, shoot arms, legs or groin to disable them. Arm shots almost guarantee that enemy's next shot is wasted.

- SMGs are great for repositioning and using burst-fire almost guarantees these debuffs (including 'Flanked').

- You should have one merc with +grit abilities. Ideally melee, to save ammo and distract the enemy.

- Machineguns and grenades are important as a fallback in case you bite off more than you can chew. You can't sustain using these. Luckily all your mercs can hold additional weapons.

- I generally only use overwatch and fullauto (into a crowd) for the same reason: when being pushed by scary/many enemies at once.

- Pin will allow your teammates next shot to crit. Great for when you're low on AP or don't have a clean shot.

- You'll want a merc with 'Distracting shot' by the midgame when you run into more gunners.

I only have 1 sniper in my squad, and the game is much easier if you use a little bit of everything. Though occasionally I have multiple mercs using a single-shot rifle in one of their slots.

You can lean into any aspect of the above based on your mercs abilities (even sniper only), but you shouldn't feel the need to. Being well rounded also makes it easier on your resources (ammo, etc.)

I'm probably missing stuff, but you get the idea.

[Hymzir]

That's a good list of points. I'm usually too verbose to summarize points in a succinct way like that. What your list shows first and foremost, is that the game is not dumbed down or shallow. There is a lot of mechanical complexity to it. When I started to pay attention to the various debuffs, and their effects, and started doing arm, groin and leg shots as needed, and not just doing torso shots or sniper shots to the head, my ability to win fights rose drastically.

As my addition to the list, I offer the suggestion that you need to pay attention to the mods each gun has. There are no strictly BIS mods, they each serve different function and focus. So slapping Thermal Scope on every gun and calling ti a day is not necessarily the best move. Overwatch specialist benefits far more from a Reflex Sight, So check the effects of the mods and think what role they benefit the most.

[VoiD]

Why burst fire isn't useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLZz_digFg

Even if we ignore the damage (20 single shot vs 10x3 burst with low accuracy), if you want to apply on-hit effects, like debuffs or stealth kills, single shot is still the best choice.

[wayne]

Originally posted by VoiD:

Why burst fire isn't useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLZz_digFg

Even if we ignore the damage (20 single shot vs 10x3 burst with low accuracy), if you want to apply on-hit effects, like debuffs or stealth kills, single shot is still the best choice.

Why would single shot be better for applying debuffs? And how does your sniper gameplay lend to your argument?

[Ablomis]

1. So let's say there is an enemy shooting at your mercs from a good cover.
2. One of you mercs flank him nicely, while other mercs keep him busy.
3. You step out of the cover and give him a full burst of AK. Sounds nice?
4. Next turn he turns around (becuase there are minimal debuffs due to injuries if any) and does two bursts at you significantly wounding your merc.

You look at this and decide to just snipe them to hell from afar. What the point in risking getting shot if you can't put down the enemy reliably with a a burst in their face.

For context, in JA2 if a merc/enemy gets a burst in the face, eve if they survive they will have significant AP penalties, can drop weapon etc.

My merc team:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723359/

My flanker:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723482/

Totally useless tactics...

[wayne]

I'm playing through the game and It's pretty easy doing what I do, I'm not suggesting that 'sniper only' isn't OP (though it may not be if you aren't save-scumming). The point that I made is that you don't need to rely on it.

I think you'd be impressed with how smooth my missions go.

[Ablomis]

Yeah just find a choke point and multiple overwatch it. Ideally far from the enemy so that they don’t rush you.

The point is not that the game is hard it is not.

The point is that it promotes one way of gameplay due to lack of balance.

[wayne]

Originally posted by Ablomis:

Yeah just find a choke point and multiple overwatch it. Ideally far from the enemy so that they don’t rush you.

The point is not that the game is hard it is not.

The point is that it promotes one way of gameplay due to lack of balance.

I think the way I play is more reliable, if not stronger. I'll upload gameplay later. I'm telling you, when you incorporate all the mechanics, you don't need to rely on snipers

[archmag]

Originally posted by wang:

I'm playing through the game and It's pretty easy doing what I do, I'm not suggesting that 'sniper only' isn't OP (though it may not be if you aren't save-scumming). The point that I made is that you don't need to rely on it.

I think you'd be impressed with how smooth my missions go.

Why are you talking about save-scumming with sniper teams? They don't have to save-scum. They hit reliably enough and have very long distance to do two-three shots until the enemy gets to them. Missing all three shots with very high accuracy is impossible.

Originally posted by VoiD:

Why burst fire isn't useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLZz_digFg

Even if we ignore the damage (20 single shot vs 10x3 burst with low accuracy), if you want to apply on-hit effects, like debuffs or stealth kills, single shot is still the best choice.

I must be missing something, but why is Reaper successfully hitting enemies without aiming? The aim circle is huge which I guess means that chance to hit is pretty low. I would never shot with such accuracy unless it is just the remaining AP and then I would aim at body to have any chance to hit. But in this video he does headshots 4 times out of 4 without aiming. Did you get super lucky or do I misunderstand what aim radius means?

[Frederica]

Originally posted by Ablomis:

1. So let's say there is an enemy shooting at your mercs from a good cover.
2. One of you mercs flank him nicely, while other mercs keep him busy.
3. You step out of the cover and give him a full burst of AK. Sounds nice?
4. Next turn he turns around (becuase there are minimal debuffs due to injuries if any) and does two bursts at you significantly wounding your merc.

You look at this and decide to just snipe them to hell from afar. What the point in risking getting shot if you can't put down the enemy reliably with a a burst in their face.

For context, in JA2 if a merc/enemy gets a burst in the face, eve if they survive they will have significant AP penalties, can drop weapon etc.

My merc team:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723359/

My flanker:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723482/

Totally useless tactics...

burst and auto fire ARE weaker in this game but they arent completely useless. hopefully they fix them in some later updates but for now,
you're using a FAMAS which specifically says it has low damage
but yes, if you're gonna use burst or auto at all, you have to be pretty close. if you're flanking (and you need to be hidden, of course) get really close and then magdump

[Frederica]

Originally posted by archmag:

I must be missing something, but why is Reaper successfully hitting enemies without aiming? The aim circle is huge which I guess means that chance to hit is pretty low. I would never shot with such accuracy unless it is just the remaining AP and then I would aim at body to have any chance to hit. But in this video he does headshots 4 times out of 4 without aiming. Did you get super lucky or do I misunderstand what aim radius means?

his M24 is modified a lot. it most likely has a bipod which gives insane bonuses when prone. not sure what his scope is but for sure it gives bonuses without having to spend AP for aiming

[VoiD]

Originally posted by archmag:

Originally posted by wang:

I'm playing through the game and It's pretty easy doing what I do, I'm not suggesting that 'sniper only' isn't OP (though it may not be if you aren't save-scumming). The point that I made is that you don't need to rely on it.

I think you'd be impressed with how smooth my missions go.

Why are you talking about save-scumming with sniper teams? They don't have to save-scum. They hit reliably enough and have very long distance to do two-three shots until the enemy gets to them. Missing all three shots with very high accuracy is impossible.

Originally posted by VoiD:

Why burst fire isn't useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLZz_digFg

Even if we ignore the damage (20 single shot vs 10x3 burst with low accuracy), if you want to apply on-hit effects, like debuffs or stealth kills, single shot is still the best choice.

I must be missing something, but why is Reaper successfully hitting enemies without aiming? The aim circle is huge which I guess means that chance to hit is pretty low. I would never shot with such accuracy unless it is just the remaining AP and then I would aim at body to have any chance to hit. But in this video he does headshots 4 times out of 4 without aiming. Did you get super lucky or do I misunderstand what aim radius means?

The gun has a bipod and a free 1 lvl aim from upgrades, I was never aware of the actual hit chances, so I've just installed the mod to check and... I was surprised, actually most/all of my shots are actually capped at 100%, I didn't think you could get 100% chances in this game, here's what his chances look like without aiming, against hienas in the dark: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006141941

So he was probably just landing 100% shots during daytime.

Originally posted by wang:

Originally posted by VoiD:

Why burst fire isn't useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klLZz_digFg

Even if we ignore the damage (20 single shot vs 10x3 burst with low accuracy), if you want to apply on-hit effects, like debuffs or stealth kills, single shot is still the best choice.

Why would single shot be better for applying debuffs? And how does your sniper gameplay lend to your argument?

As I was saying, I just went to check, and I was surprised, it's actually much worse for burst fire than I thought as you can actually reach 100% accuracy in this game, and I was not aware of it.

No matter the % chance, anything below 100% is far less reliable than a single 100% shot, I mean, you CAN also get a 100% burst, but unless you're playing with this mod, you'll never know whether or not you're there yet, and you probably should never risk it as you can't fine tune the range to get that 100% reliability, a million 99% shots are still less reliable than a single 100% shot.

Here's what Fox' aim looks like:

Dragunov with Thermal Sight 3x aim:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006141092
Dragunov with Thermal Sight 3x aim burst:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006141114

As for SMGs, assault rifles and the such, they need to get much closer to get anywhere near the same percentages, so if you just want to be sure, as you can't always control the range you can get a shot at your targets, again, just carry around snipers, they can do it all, killing, debuffing, stealth killing, all with 100% reliability, no chance for bad luck.

MP5 with range upgrades: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006141157
MP5 with range upgrades burst:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006141181

Granted a leg shot on the 2nd screenshot WOULD be more reliable as a burst (you need 78.46% on a 3 rounds burst to be as reliable as a 99% chance shot, anything above makes it more reliable than single) it's still a matter of positining, one tile closer and that 99% would have turned into 100% as well, and then only a point blank 100% burst would be able to compare in terms of reliability.

But if you're at point blank the last think you'd need to worry about is shooting someone's leg isn't it?

Anyway, sorry, I don't see it, with this -50% damage nerf to burst damage, unreliable accuracy and higher AP cost, unless I'm using this mod to make sure I'm actually having a 100% chance I'd never take my chances.

Edit:
The guns, if you want to try it on your own game
M24: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006144328
Dragunov: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006144310
MP5 https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3006144343

Ofc the SMG isn't as upgraded as the rest, but nothing in that list really did catch my eye, and I didn't want bonuses for 3x aiming on a low damage weapon that should be good @ quickfire IMO.

[wayne]

Originally posted by archmag:

Why are you talking about save-scumming with sniper teams? They don't have to save-scum. They hit reliably enough and have very long distance to do two-three shots until the enemy gets to them. Missing all three shots with very high accuracy is impossible.

Because if you don't get a good (stealth) open, or do end up missing, you take a lot of heat and maybe lose a merc. The game is designed so that all sniper CAN work, but being able to save/reload makes it appear way stronger than it is. I mean, it may actually be overpowered if you're min/max'ed around it-- but I'm convinced that most people will lean into snipers before they crack the code on the 'intended' style of combat. That is a flaw of the game for sure, but a balanced team still does great work.

[Ablomis]

Originally posted by Frederica:

Originally posted by Ablomis:

1. So let's say there is an enemy shooting at your mercs from a good cover.
2. One of you mercs flank him nicely, while other mercs keep him busy.
3. You step out of the cover and give him a full burst of AK. Sounds nice?
4. Next turn he turns around (becuase there are minimal debuffs due to injuries if any) and does two bursts at you significantly wounding your merc.

You look at this and decide to just snipe them to hell from afar. What the point in risking getting shot if you can't put down the enemy reliably with a a burst in their face.

For context, in JA2 if a merc/enemy gets a burst in the face, eve if they survive they will have significant AP penalties, can drop weapon etc.

My merc team:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723359/

My flanker:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/ablomis/screenshot/2039617937413723482/

Totally useless tactics...

burst and auto fire ARE weaker in this game but they arent completely useless. hopefully they fix them in some later updates but for now,
you're using a FAMAS which specifically says it has low damage
but yes, if you're gonna use burst or auto at all, you have to be pretty close. if you're flanking (and you need to be hidden, of course) get really close and then magdump

Of course i move closer from that position using free move. And yeah its fa mas but still. You should be able to reliably put down an enemy from close (And same with your mercs). Otherwise there is no point in all the flanking bs - you don’t want trading shots.

[archmag]

Originally posted by VoiD:

The gun has a bipod and a free 1 lvl aim from upgrades, I was never aware of the actual hit chances, so I've just installed the mod to check and... I was surprised, actually most/all of my shots are actually capped at 100%

Hmm, then what I assumed based on my experience with some other JA-like games that aim circle shows the possible spread was wrong. Interesting. I thought that bipod would just reduce the size of the circle but was surprised that even with bipod the circle was still too large to shoot without aiming.

Originally posted by wang:

Because if you don't get a good (stealth) open, or do end up missing, you take a lot of heat and maybe lose a merc. The game is designed so that all sniper CAN work, but being able to save/reload makes it appear way stronger than it is. I mean, it may actually be overpowered if you're min/max'ed around it-- but I'm convinced that most people will lean into snipers before they crack the code on the 'intended' style of combat. That is a flaw of the game for sure, but a balanced team still does great work.

I myself use a team of 3 snipers, 2 assault rifles, 1 dagger/stealth pistol. Snipers still usually kill everyone from range but assault rifles are there to cover them when they miss and pistol/daggers are great to finish off someone who gets too close. I respect that people can find the way to play with different weapon teams instead of complaining how enemies in the fourth battle (The Rust) are too difficult and impossible to beat with pistols/smg/rifles that you get by that point.

[peddroelm]

Originally posted by archmag:

I must be missing something, but why is Reaper successfully hitting enemies without aiming? The aim circle is huge which I guess means that chance to hit is pretty low. I would never shot with such accuracy unless it is just the remaining AP and then I would aim at body to have any chance to hit. But in this video he does headshots 4 times out of 4 without aiming. Did you get super lucky or do I misunderstand what aim radius means?

The size of the Aiming circle ONLY tells how many action points you've spent aiming ..

It is possible to be at 100 CTH HEADSHOT with MAX SIZE AIM CURSOR dark !!! (no extra aiming)
It is possible to be at say less 50% CTH TORSO with min size AIM CURSOR green (spend many AP to AIM) ..

(it the CTH is really terrible the Merc will bark a complaint like.. 'You're asking the impossible kid !')

NOT directly correlated with CTH other than speeding extra AP to aim increases CTH (might not be needed (wasting AP) or the shot might still be terrible with all the aiming (possibly wasting AP if you miss taking a still bad shot) .. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW without see CTH mod !)..