Autofire and Burst need to be useful

[VoiD]

I get they are meant to have lower accuracy and all, but it's not like the bullets magically lose power just because you're not firing single shots, if you land 2 shots, you should just do 2x damage.

Right now I've found myself using nothing but dragunov and M24 sniper rifles on everyone, autofire weapons don't deal enough damage to be worth using, plus they waste ammo for no good reason, exception being LMGs, they still waste ammo, but at least they hit hard.

Other than overwatch shots, is anyone out there using burst fire, SMGs and the such? I find it hard to compete with 1~2 shot kills with near perfect accuracy and the best ammo management.

Also, pistols and dual wield weapons (including SMGs) are far too unreliable, even up close I'm still finding it much more reliable to shoot with a sniper than attempting to fire a dual burst, those things can't hit for ♥♥♥♥.

[some guy]

probably agree with that. i use 1 shot rifles on hitman and raven and a lmg on grizzly, barry grenades and an auto gun, dr. q melee and an auto gun. lmg is crazy good. i avoided most of the autoguns for my primary damage dealers. i do use them on my secondary mercs for ammo reasons tho. the benefit of auto guns is you can use them with people that dont have super high marksmenship and can get close so they still hit stuff and do decent damage. a second benefit is you get multiple shots per round, so you can finish people off and lastly they are good to have on closer range as a secondary (because of the proximity malus). overall i think your judgement seems correct. i havent tried dual mpk5 with meltdown tho, might be decent with run and gun.

[uncle nick]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3005825623
Yeah Nah, they were nerfed in favour of single shots, but flash and bullets looks so cool. I just had to use them.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3005825868

[VoiD]

I mean, I'm not playing with the hit chance mod so I don't know the actual % chances.

But is it reasonable for the MP5, as an example, to deal 16 damage on a single shot, and 8x3 damage on a burst?

I mean, even if you do manage to land 2 shots, which doesn't seem like it happens all that often, you're still doing just as much damage as you would have done with a single shot, so why even bother?

If you land all 3 shots, sure, you'll deal more damage, at the cost of 3x more ammo spent, but the odds really aren't in favor of this happening are they? It seems like it will always deal less damage on average, AND it will cost more AP, what's even the point?

Some weapons can have enhancements to add another bullet to the burst, and then it almost seem worth it, if you're fine with burning through ammo, but still, I find that single shots are superior whenever you have a choice. I just don't get why burst needed to do any less damage at all, it's the same bullet, from the same gun, doing half as much damage for "reasons". The accuracy malus seem like enough of a penalty for those weapons IMO.

Mercs like Raven can sort of make the 4+ burst weapons worth it, but unless I'm missing something I don't see the point.

PS: FAMAs 16dmg vs 8x3 dmg
M14 21dmg vs 3(4)x11 dmg
FNFAL 30dmg vs 3(4)x15dmg

etc..

[Ablomis]

How would anyone come up with this idea? Like single shot is 16 damage and burst is 3x8. Is there any tactical game that does this type of fake tricks?
The whole point of burst fire is to obliterate enemies up close and you can't do this reliably.

[The Great Cornholio]

yep, two full squads with M24 and one Winchester

[VoiD]

Originally posted by The Great Cornholio:

yep, two full squads with M24 and one Winchester

Great weapons

Originally posted by Ablomis:

How would anyone come up with this idea? Like single shot is 16 damage and burst is 3x8. Is there any tactical game that does this type of fake tricks?
The whole point of burst fire is to obliterate enemies up close and you can't do this reliably.

I dare say most people complaining about enemies being hard to kill must be using burst fire or something like that, you need to land 2 out of 3 shots just to break even AND it costs more AP, how often do you land all 3 shots in a burst to make it worth using with reduced accuracy and increased AP costs?

Most weapons come with burst as the default firing mode, so I'm guessing all of these people are just missing everything, due to lower accuracy, and when they hit they deal like 8 damage, minus armor, which is pathetic, meanwhile the M24 and Dragunov gang are killing every target in 1 or 2 shots with near perfect accuracy.

[posthum]

Originally posted by VoiD:

I dare say most people complaining about enemies being hard to kill must be using burst fire or something like that, you need to land 2 out of 3 shots just to break even AND it costs more AP, how often do you land all 3 shots in a burst to make it worth using with reduced accuracy and increased AP costs?

Most weapons come with burst as the default firing mode, so I'm guessing all of these people are just missing everything, due to lower accuracy, and when they hit they deal like 8 damage, minus armor, which is pathetic, meanwhile the M24 and Dragunov gang are killing every target in 1 or 2 shots with near perfect accuracy.

^ This and people complaining about the game being too hard have not figured out that using overwatch every single time gets you two or three times more shots fired per turn from your team, which melts the bullet sponges quite nicely, but gets boring very fast.

[Dick__Dastardly]

I hate it, and don't use it. And you can't completely avoid the "stupid" because you can't set single shot for overwatch. Accuracy penalty, absolutely. But the ballistics don't change with your fire selector. At point blank it should be deadly but more AP than a single. Otherwise not so much, but potentially useful against a group, or for suppression.

[cANe]

It's unbelievable how poorly balanced burst weapons is in this game. Having the bullets magically do less damage is about as absurd as it can get.

The negatives is a higher ammo consumption as well as lower accuracy so why the ♥♥♥♥ is the damage also lower? Makes no sense

[hisssan]

Originally posted by Ablomis:

How would anyone come up with this idea? Like single shot is 16 damage and burst is 3x8. Is there any tactical game that does this type of fake tricks?
The whole point of burst fire is to obliterate enemies up close and you can't do this reliably.

Totally agree, makes no sense balance-wise. Whoever thought that was a bright idea should quit building games. (and shoot himself 3 times in the foot because its less damaging than a single round, obviously)

[posthum]

Really hoping this gets modded next, full damage per round with less accuracy total is a must.

[Ablomis]

Meanwhile in JA2: walk around the corner blindly and get hit with a burst in the face for 245 damage total... Yes, getting an AK burst in the face should be deadly..

[Dreepa]

Originally posted by hisssan:

Originally posted by Ablomis:

How would anyone come up with this idea? Like single shot is 16 damage and burst is 3x8. Is there any tactical game that does this type of fake tricks?
The whole point of burst fire is to obliterate enemies up close and you can't do this reliably.

Totally agree, makes no sense balance-wise. Whoever thought that was a bright idea should quit building games. (and shoot himself 3 times in the foot because its less damaging than a single round, obviously)

No, 3 hits in the foot deal more damage than 1 hit. 3x8 =24. Vs 16. That's 8 more dmg.

:P

Also, don't hate on ppl making games, it's just not fair. You cannot do everything perfect when you work on 1000 topics for a game for 3 years, 8 hours a day.

You never made a mistake in your life or what?

[posthum]

Originally posted by Dreepa:

You never made a mistake in your life or what?

I know I have, and when I do people criticize me and/or get mad. Pretty sure this is what most people's professional lifes are like. Why would game developers be exempt from that?

[Multihog]

Originally posted by VoiD:

I get they are meant to have lower accuracy and all, but it's not like the bullets magically lose power just because you're not firing single shots, if you land 2 shots, you should just do 2x damage.

Yeah, I think this goes against the JA philosophy. In JA, a bullet is a bullet; it's not supposed to have these "gamey" elements such as doing less damage if it travels through smoke or burst fire doing less damage. It goes against the simulation angle that JA is supposed to have.

The graze mechanic in this game is unrealistic and gamey. A graze should be an organically, through the game's normal systems, achieved poor hit that grazes the enemy, not an artificially applied effect. As it stands, you can clearly see the bullet hit the enemy squarely, but then it's a "graze."

I also agree with you about general weapon balance. Sniper rifles and explosives are way overtuned. Pistols and SMGs are very bad. Assault rifles are weak as well compared to snipers and explosives.