Engaging JA3 on its own terms

[FatalException]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about the design decisions going into the games mechanics and how to explain them. At some point, I decided to just "ask" the source and trawled the Dev Diaries for explanations concerning the teams design goals. In this thread, I want to look at how the stated goals have been met or missed.

Disclaimer: I'll be b*tching a lot about this game. Please be aware that I wouldn't, if I didn't like it overakk. While many choices are grating and or baffling to me, I do consider the game a very solid entry into both the franchise and the genre.

We like to think about our approach as "action movie" realism where guns feel like guns but the good guys can still kick ass against seemingly impossible odds.

This is one of the quotes that stuck with me from before launch the most - and in many ways clashes the most with my experiences in game. Let's nitpick:
Guns mostly feel like nerf guns in this game. An Ernie Island starting goon survives 2-3 headshots from a handgun or shrugs off a burst of 7.62 rounds to the chest no problem. This is neither covered by wanting guns to feel like guns, nor by "movie realism". The machine gun nerf also runs counter intuitive to this stated goal.
The game allows you to feel like you are competing with impossible in some missions where you have to guard allies against waves of attacking enemies, but this is mostly achieved by hamfisting you into bad positions and filling your wards with suicidal urges.

at its core combat in Jagged Alliance 3 aims to be a realistic experience, one that would not be possible without a realistic simulation running behind it

While the bullet physics are nice. I have to wonder while the realistic simulation seems to stop there. Reducing the damage per bullet in automatic fire modes is neither helping the realism of the simulation, nor the "movie realism".
We also see a noise system that seems to have been much more ambitious in the past, but seems to ahve been truncated in th release version

From the very start of the design process for Jagged Alliance 3 we knew that we wanted a classless system for the mercs.

Advancing your so-called medic to become a top-tier sniper or mechanic should take serious effort, but is ultimately possible and no artificial class definitions will prevent you from doing so.

This is interesting to me, seeing how easy it is to train mercs in the finished game. While I prefer it as is, nobody in their right mind would say it is hard to make the likes of MD, Fox or other "Medics" into top tier snipers. All you need are a few days of merc on merc training.
But they did nail the classless system in general.

the ammo you use is going to be a factor during the battles you fight. Every weapon needs a specific cartridge, and there are different types that you can use. Ammo management will be something you need to take into consideration when playing your campaign and go deeper into Grand Chien. If you don’t, you run the risk of turning your favorite gun into a highly impractical paperweight.

So here we have an actual statement of "scarcity as part of the design", at least in regards to ammo. I don't think it mixes well with the "movie realism" angle from before, but I certainly had runs where RNG f*cked me over with drops and I had to scramble for ammo all the time. The thing is: in combination with the reduced damage per bullet of bursts, this is one of the primary reasons for the games prominent rifle-meta.

No gunshot is really silent but if you want to be able to sneak several shots before being detected - load up some Subsonic ammo.

While Stealth is present in Jagged Alliance 3, we didn’t want it to be dominant, turning every encounter into a stealth puzzle - there are other games that specialize in this and Jagged Alliance is not meant to provide that kind of experience.

Well.. devs done f*cked up.... I can't say it any other way. If you don't oneshot a target, it doesn't matter whether you field a silenced 9mm with subsonic ammo, or an unsupressed .50cal, you'll be revealed. If you kill in one shot, it actually is equally irrelevant. The subsonic ammo is another hint at a much more ambitious sound system that did not make it to release.

And stealth... stealth rules JA3 with an iron fist. Sure you can do something else, but with stealth kills being seperate from, yet associated with straight damage increases, attacking from hidden is by far the most powerfull strategy with any weapon that allows it. Players will pretty naturally tend to turn any map into a stealth puzzle, especially considering the damage nerfs to burst fire and ammo scarcity issues.

a unique combination of simulative turn-based combat, colorful characters, strategic management and the exploration of an open RPG-inspired sandbox world

All in all, I do have to say they nailed this one. Characters are great, strategic gameplay is... fine and the exploration is fun. The RPG elements are prominent enough to be noteworthy, but not front and center.

So... yeah.

[LuckyDude]

Mostly JA3 feels like comedy + action 90's movie than realistic combat. Most of the game mechanics looks too ridiculous for a realistic game. Only JA2 feels realistic.

[Rhapsody]

You can keep playing the old games if you feel like it. Everything this game is about was made well apparent in pre-release materials.

[MKDS nikos]

Originally posted by LuckyDude:

Mostly JA3 feels like comedy + action 90's movie than realistic combat. Most of the game mechanics looks too ridiculous for a realistic game. Only JA2 feels realistic.

For the vast majority of JA3 followers half a loaf is better than no bread. That is why JA3 got 88% on steam. Lack of realism? Who cares. The decline in realism in games has accelerated in recent years.

[FatalException]

Originally posted by LuckyDude:

Mostly JA3 feels like comedy + action 90's movie than realistic combat. Most of the game mechanics looks too ridiculous for a realistic game. Only JA2 feels realistic.

Maybe I should have added another disclaimer: I do not intend to compare JA3 to JA2 in this thread. As the title and first post should clearly indicate, the discussion here should revolve around the question whether or not JA3 hit it's stated design goals.

The constant regurgitating of "JA2 is better" does add nothing to any discussion on this game. Most people who stamp this sentiment over every thread they manage to click on don't even talk about the same JA2, but whatever modded version they've convinced themselves is the "real" JA2 for the last two decades.

[Rhapsody]

Originally posted by RAKOS:

The decline in realism in games has accelerated in recent years.

That's not really true. Games are simply far more detailed and realistic in other ways than, say, having to rotate your sprite character for correct lines of sight. See destructibility or trajectory of grenades in JA3 for example.

[FatalException]

Originally posted by Rhapsody:

You can keep playing the old games if you feel like it. Everything this game is about was made well apparent in pre-release materials.

I have no intention of bringing the old games into this discussion. There is a reason I strictly stuck to dev-diary quotes stating their design goals. Because - unfortunately - they did miss the mark on quite a few of them.

[MKDS nikos]

Enemy behavior on the battlefield of JA2 is a way better than in JA3. The most annoying bug is the decline in AP in combat mode after stealth wounding enemy. Next is the lack of switch off the combat mode when enemy do not see a merc. Enemy always run after merc even if he does not see him or hear him. Other is gathering of the enemy into herd. So easy to blast them all into the air. That is the lack of realism.

[sono]

The guns, especially early on, do feel a bit off. The first couple of combats, when you're just using pistols, it feels like you're doing no damage when shooting. Once you get some usable guns this gets better, and enemies getting armor also helps with the immersion. Sure, they still take a lot of bullets to take down sometimes, but that's just part of it being a game. And people can take a surprising amount of bullets without dying irl, depending on where you're hit.

Stealth is a bit broken, the out-of-combat stealth isn't great but it's tolerable, but in-combat stealth is silly. Especially since you can headshot someone, and the guy next to him won't spot you. Locking it behind a high-tier perk would help with this I think, only top-tier mercs being able to hide when the enemy is alerted would feel better than the current system.

Ammo scarcity is interesting - sure, you can run out of ammo if you use a lot of the same weapon, but it encourages weapon variety and you can always pick up some more in places like the Flea Market.

Burst/auto feels terrible to use due to damage dropoff. A system of lower accuracy per-shot or in general wouldn't feel like you're actively punished for using it and make snipers less dominant.

[[ScrN]PooSH]

♥♥♥♥ realism, seriously. I have fired guns only at shooting ranges, never been at war or any military conflict, and I hope that I will never have to. WAR IS NOT FUN!

The game, on the other hand, must be fun and entertaining. And JA3 nailed it! JA3 messes up in many aspects: balance, common sense, UI/UX, etc., but it is so enjoyable to play.

A question to those 1.13 nerds who seek realism: how many military conflicts have you been at? How can you comprehend the real?

[Waclaw83]

Yes, the start of the game did feel like my merc were shooting nerf guns and I almost quit playing.

Yes, bullet damage reduction in burst is a sorry excuse for "realism" and is simply bad. Made me switch to rifles and I still believe it's the most op way to play, while any burst fire is a waste of ammo unless you play with some of the fixed guns in certain sectors.

Yes, it's not that hard to train anyone to be a sniper level shooter, but at the same time all it takes to be a "sniper" from my experience is being above 80 mark, and you land head shots with no real problems. So the issue is deeper than just too easy training among your mercs.

No, scarsity of ammo is only a thing when you use burst fire. Once you switch to single fire, or better yet drift towards sniping and stealth kills? You end up with mountains of ammo, especially of types you don't use at all. At least that's my experience thus far. That said, I still don't get why there is no way to shop for ammo and guns in a pemanent way...

Yes, stealth is as broken as much as it can be at this point. It's fun to be able to abuse the system in the first couple of fights (that Gewehr with the can on it was a game changer!), but at some point you realize it's just broken and needs a re-work. Set up a line of mercs with silenced guns, and if you do it in the right spot, you can sometimes just skip setting up overwatches. The enemies will just come right to you to get their dose of definitive pain killer.

So... I still like the game despite the flaws I see. Yes, the team has missed the mark in a number of places, but it doesn't change the fact I'm enjoying the game as it is. And easy modding capacity will make this game only better with time.

Originally posted by ScrNPooSH:

A question to those 1.13 nerds who seek realism: how many military conflicts have you been at? How can you comprehend the real?

Sweet baby Jesus, don't lure the 1.13 crowds out. NOTHING will ever be as good as 1.13, and NOTHING will change their mind

[lx]

Originally posted by FatalException:

... "JA2 is better" ...

ja2 is better.
dont you love it, trying to tell people, that this is not a comparison and anyone talking about ja2. i had such topics myself