I don't think sniper rifles are op or stealth kills

[Mish101]

I think sniper rifles behave how they are meant to like sniper rifles. I only had 2 main snipers in my team which acted as back line support shooters. My snipers didn't always have line of sight on targets or were out of position.

The main bulk of my forces were people using assault rifles mainly Fals. I don't think FALS are op either as higher ap cost 7.62 rifles they hit harder but felt clunky to use. I actually kinda liked 5.56 rifles more they felt a bit more agile but i didn't have many of them.

Actually anyone who is a good marksman with high dex and single shot concealed can do a lot of damage with any rifle(assault or sniper) provided they are in range and the weapon is modded out. And if they are high dex they can easily get into position.

As for stealth I did take out the occasional solo dude with a sniper rifle but that's it. For groups I usually used stealth to set up an ambush where sniper would take out one dude blood would attempt to take out another with a knife or another suppressed weapon and so on. I used stealth a bit like xcom conceal. In fact stealth being like infinite conceal is and used for ambushes is for me a very cool feature.

It is possible for a player to go and buy himself 6 SVDs(For their whole team) with suppressors and thermal scopes, but that is a personal choice. It doesn't effect me in anyway if someone chooses to play the game this way.

On a another note I watched someone in baldurs gate 3 just pancake a boss with a unconventional build. And in divinity original sin there is an option to drop heavy crates onto enemies with telekinesis. Both of these games feel more creative than just standard turn based games. So having mechanics that allow you to creatively kill people outside of standard turn based combat using stealth and possibly remote detonated explosives. I would have loved to use remote detonated explosives but neither c4 nor actual detonators were widely available to me. Imagine sneaking around planting explosives then detonating them either as an opening move or during combat. These mechanics make the game so much more than just a tactical turn based rpg.

Also I strongly suspect people who are upset about m24s suppressed being OP and PSG1s being suppressed OP. Will switch over to FAL suppressed with the extended range barrels and suppressors and complain about that if sniper rifles get nerfed. Ultimately it is your choice how you use these weapons.

I don't think the problem is actually the weapons themselves. The problem if there is one is everyone mostly uses m24s and Fals not because they are op but because they are consistently available. I for example would love to use m16a2s more but until second stage of the game both 5.56 ammo and 5.56 weapons are scarce. If i could just buy m16a2s at a market stall and standard 5.56 ammo(say 120 rounds) I may very well choose them over Fals. Oh and SVDs are also widely available. So the problem is what gear you encounter. PSG1 m24 and FALS are good because 7.62 is widely available, one mg42 enemy drop and you got 100 rounds. AKs and SVDS are good in the north east part of the game because enemies with aks are more common over there.

Ultimately what I am trying to say is there could be so many ways to play jagged alliance but actually what holds it back is loot rng.

Also yes the title was just an opener to start a conversation.

[mr_oluap]

yeah people are a bit crazy about SR, shotguns are much more OP for example but for some reasons (?) people are failing to notice this and talk only about so called "sniper meta".

By the way you can craft 5,56 and anyway it becomes more abundant later in the game

[Nek]

i agree. i have only ever found 1 of several weapons and the game is almost over when u do. bring back the mini-14.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

yeah people are a bit crazy about SR, shotguns are much more OP for example but for some reasons (?) people are failing to notice this and talk only about so called "sniper meta".

"Some reasons"??? Have you tried playing without reloads? Nothing is more safe than killing at range 30 especially in stealth mode.

[Echo.Ren]

sniper rifles are sniper rifles. you snipe with them. from afar. and all that bs about it being OP with silencers... i used em without silencers. and guess what, still oneshots, still usable in stealth mod - not like you revealed if used w/o silencer (used 1984 - 43 at 30 range, ammo is everywhere, took it from Flay). melee with the thing is more stupid and OP than sr.

[Butterside down]

All my squadies are used as snipers and armed with fully decked SR's. They operate at max range in teams. Sure a shot gun will kill an enemy if you are close enough. But that means 7 enemy are in range of your gunner waiting to take him out in one turn. There is no use for any other fire arm in this game. Launchers are great too.

[CrUsHeR]

Stealth kills specifically are their own story, because a stealth kill with a low power rifle works just the same as with the sniper rifle.

The difference is that the sniper rifle can ignore the whole stealth kill mechanic, because you still oneshot the target even if the stealth kill would fail. Like that 85% chance with your 5.56 AR still means that every sixth or so attempt will fail, blowing your cover and risk injuries.



Then again, injuries in this game are pretty weird. Each wound gives -10 max HP, regardless how much damage was actually dealt. They do not give any actual penalties, except morale which vanishes after exiting combat mode.
And instead of permanently losing attribute points from heavy injuries (like in JA2), you actually GAIN health while getting patched up. Meaning that getting frequently wounded makes your mercs much more durable in the long run.

So i believe that most players (including me) are making much more of a deal out of perfect stealth kill playthroughs than necessary.

[Nek]

some enemies can move unbelievably far and still get 2 melee attacks. after u get a merc killed by these guys you want to stay as far away as possible and the sniper rifles are the best at that.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

yeah people are a bit crazy about SR, shotguns are much more OP for example but for some reasons (?) people are failing to notice this and talk only about so called "sniper meta".

"Some reasons"??? Have you tried playing without reloads? Nothing is more safe than killing at range 30 especially in stealth mode.

yeah i'm playing MI true ironman... nothings beats killing 3+ ennemies in one turn and you can't really do that with SR.

Not saying SR are bad but camping at range and doing stealth skills in just one possible strategy among others.

[Triplefox]

The OPness of SR is not really about the damage they do - lots of stuff does damage - but the way in which the combination of long range, simple AI, and low ammo use speeds up the pace of the game, since the majority of the time, you're stopping the enemy from even taking a useful turn when you saturate the map with snipers. They just run at you without shooting or taking cover because they aren't close enough to see mercs in Hidden state, and then, unless they swarm with more people than you have snipers(which becomes less and less likely as you start stacking 6+ on the team), you one-shot all of them...and because you do it in one shot you conserve ammo and can immediately turn on Hidden again, so the tactics are simple, repeatable, everyone has the skills to use it, and it ends up being the best weapon logistically too since everything else is constrained by ammo. Only a few sectors present anything that gets in the way of using them like this.

If I had more explosives available by default I would definitely use those. One thing I did not do much of in playthrough 1 was crafting. It didn't hand out lots of raw material for anything I was interested in. So I do agree that something could be done to balance there, either to snowball loot to give the player lots of everything, to nerf the gun to require a sniper specialist to make stealth kills(which is where MGs are now tuned - they still slay with higher level auto weapons mercs) or to make the enemy AI better at counterplaying sniping specifically by e.g. using smoke.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

"Some reasons"??? Have you tried playing without reloads? Nothing is more safe than killing at range 30 especially in stealth mode.

yeah i'm playing MI true ironman... nothings beats killing 3+ ennemies in one turn and you can't really do that with SR.

Not saying SR are bad but camping at range and doing stealth skills in just one possible strategy among others.

I have already finished MI ironman. What's your point? All my guys with SR can kill 3 enemies per turn too, they have another weapon for that.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

yeah i'm playing MI true ironman... nothings beats killing 3+ ennemies in one turn and you can't really do that with SR.

Not saying SR are bad but camping at range and doing stealth skills in just one possible strategy among others.

I have already finished MI ironman. What's your point? All my guys with SR can kill 3 enemies per turn too, they have another weapon for that.

Well my point is precisely what you just said, SR are good but not really more than other weapons, which is why your SR guys "have another weapon for that"

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

I have already finished MI ironman. What's your point? All my guys with SR can kill 3 enemies per turn too, they have another weapon for that.

Well my point is precisely what you just said, SR are good but not really more than other weapons, which is why your SR guys "have another weapon for that"

Our discussion started with you wondering why people don't see how shotguns are better than SR for "some reason" and correct answer is shotguns are not better. It is extremely easy to get mercs killed if using shotguns, that's the reason why people don't use shotguns despite those technically can deal much more damage.
Though I am going to play "pure pistols/SMG/shotgun" game after I am done with current pure melee.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Well my point is precisely what you just said, SR are good but not really more than other weapons, which is why your SR guys "have another weapon for that"

Our discussion started with you wondering why people don't see how shotguns are better than SR for "some reason" and correct answer is shotguns are not better. It is extremely easy to get mercs killed if using shotguns, that's the reason why people don't use shotguns despite those technically can deal much more damage.

I would agree if we were talking about pistols or smg but shotguns are very safe due to the free repositioning you get after firing.

[mr_oluap]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

Our discussion started with you wondering why people don't see how shotguns are better than SR for "some reason" and correct answer is shotguns are not better. It is extremely easy to get mercs killed if using shotguns, that's the reason why people don't use shotguns despite those technically can deal much more damage.

I would agree if we were talking about pistols or smg but shotguns are very safe due to the free repositioning you get after firing.

This my "free move" with Barry after killing some guy :

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198003552862/screenshot/2010347206098602389/

I'm not really feeling in danger...

[Echo.Ren]

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

Originally posted by mr_oluap:

I would agree if we were talking about pistols or smg but shotguns are very safe due to the free repositioning you get after firing.

This my "free move" with Barry after killing some guy :

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198003552862/screenshot/2010347206098602389/

I'm not really feeling in danger...

lol does shotgun free ap and nade free ap stack? wtf is this :D