Opinion: Sniping still badly needs to be nerfed

[ahsanford]

On my second playthrough now, and I'm falling into the same rut: there are next to zero drawbacks to fielding an entire 6 person squad with sniper rifles.

I'm maybe 20h into this playthrough and I just completed everything on the first main island (the one after Ernie, I mean). I originally started with only two people that could actually reliably hit targets: my IMP main and Ice. (My other three were Livewire, Barry and MD.) I later added Scope after I took the Pentagruel mine.

And while I now have some variety in the *second* weapon folks use -- some ARs, an MG, Barry with all sorts of grenade/launcher options -- every single character sports a silenced sniper rifle and is comically lethal with it. Everyone is now trained up to 80 or higher in marksmanship, and even the originally 'not great at shooting' three members are routinely scoring headshots. I'm bulldozing the game again as a result.

I think knocking down their hitting power is unrealistic, but possibly a few other changes might force folks to diversify their arsenal:

1) Limit when you can use them: make them completely useless under range 10 or so.

2) Give them a really high usage price: like make them take a turn to set up like a MG, or you must commit your turn for a headshot attempt (which would automatically take place the next turn).

3) Limit how effectively you can use them in a firefight: make aim really sensitive when the shooter was under fire (or allies nearby are firing) in the last turn, or make them considerably less accurate once you're out of stealth and enemies are moving.

4) Or, in absence of nerfing them, build in new loadout rules: limit a squad to 1-2 players max carrying such weapons.

Am I crazy, or is this not an obvious (and very fixable) balance problem with the game?

- A

[SeriousCCIE]

I'm still stuck on understanding why the OP self-identifies as relying on sniper rifles too much, and as a result, wants everyone that might not share the same prediliction to have his issue remedied for them by forced game changes for a playstyle they might not be using or have an issue with.

Part of the fun of the game, for me at least, is to experiment with different ways to win spectacularly (or lose horribly).

I admit I take a bit less risks this time around, due to the much smaller pool of mercenaries available as compared to prior JAs, but I still do try to feel out the strengths and weaknesses if the situation allows for it.

The game rewards and punishes min/maxing to a great extent, especially when it comes to the perks; some combinations unlock amazing capabilities, and effectively render alternative playstyles for that merecenary to be effectively locked of, or at least incredibly ill-suited for changing the approach mid-to-late game...

But if you're starting out from a distance and afraid to get closer, then deliberately make an IMP with hand-to-hand skills and force that guy into melee. Learn what all that stuff you are scrapping for parts to trick out your sniper rifles could otherwise do.

And don't give up on the snipers--the sure do have their place. Just try not to use them in every inventory place. At least give someone a mortar or something to help mix up the types of deaths you cause!

[Quillithe]

Whether or not snipers are OP they certainly feel too general-purpose. No matter what your main plan is for any merc you can give them a secondary sniper. It has no movement point penalty, doesn't really require any special skills to use well, and is effective at long range.

If your merc has high aim, they can now headshot everyone.

If your merc has low aim, they have a weapon with great aim bonuses to help them actually hit.

If you're far away, they're likely the best weapon and you can just shoot at enemies while they have to get closer.

If you're close up, they're definitely not the best, but they're not terrible.

It's just kinda weird because they should not be acceptable general purpose weapons, but should be pretty specialized.

[uncle nick]

Sniper rifle are not general purpose. They're useless for when enemy has taken cover or behind full cover.

True general purpose weapon is the Commando with quick scope, extended mag, 5.56 armor piercing rounds, and under barrel grenade launcher.

When wearing light armour vest, fast runner, frog leaping, you can use Run and Gun like William Dafoe in platoon, shoot on the run at the enemy, then have the option to shoot again for the kill, or runaway to better cover. And for longer distance or enemy behind cover you have 40mm HE.

[Quillithe]

uncle nick eredeti hozzászólása:

Sniper rifle are not general purpose. They're useless for when enemy has taken cover or behind full cover.

True general purpose weapon is the Commando with quick scope, extended mag, 5.56 armor piercing rounds, and under barrel grenade launcher.

When wearing light armour vest, fast runner, frog leaping, you can use Run and Gun like William Dafoe in platoon, shoot on the run at the enemy, then have the option to shoot again for the kill, or runaway to better cover. And for longer distance or enemy behind cover you have 40mm HE.

You're describing a specific upgraded later game weapon, as opposed to an entire weapon category.

Besides which the point isn't that they're absolutely the best general-purpose weapons in the game, it's that they shouldn't even be in the running! A team of 6 people with snipers should feel like you have a weakness to compensate for by playing using special tactics, like taking a team of 6 melee mercs.

Instead it's mostly just kinda...fine.

[Trolleur_Durden]

uncle nick eredeti hozzászólása:

Sniper rifle are not general purpose. They're useless for when enemy has taken cover or behind full cover.

True general purpose weapon is the Commando with quick scope, extended mag, 5.56 armor piercing rounds, and under barrel grenade launcher.

When wearing light armour vest, fast runner, frog leaping, you can use Run and Gun like William Dafoe in platoon, shoot on the run at the enemy, then have the option to shoot again for the kill, or runaway to better cover. And for longer distance or enemy behind cover you have 40mm HE.

Actually, that's not true. Thermal scope removes the cover bonus of a target at 3+ aim.

[uncle nick]

Haha, if you have thermal scope. Still cannot hit enemy standing up behind Full Cover.

[uncle nick]

Quillithe eredeti hozzászólása:

You're describing a specific upgraded later game weapon, as opposed to an entire weapon category.

Besides which the point isn't that they're absolutely the best general-purpose weapons in the game, it's that they shouldn't even be in the running! A team of 6 people with snipers should feel like you have a weakness to compensate for by playing using special tactics, like taking a team of 6 melee mercs.

Instead it's mostly just kinda...fine.

Makes no difference, we don't need later game weapons or 6 sniper mercs or 6 melee mercs. We just need to understand what perks and which weapons to equip.

One good setup merc is worth 6 sniper mercs or 6 melee mercs. I usually setup Flay with the Winchester 1894 sniper rifle and sharpened machete. We can see sniper rifle slung over his back.

With the sniper rifle, he could maybe take out one or maybe two enemy max during Turn 1.

With the sharpened machete, he can take out 4 enemy during Turn 1, and 3 more enemy during Enemy Turn. Total 7 enemy KIA. There are better killing options than just using sniper rifles.

Do we need to bring 6 snipers or 6 melee to any fight? If we just bring 1 or 2 snipers to any fight, the sniper rifle will be just fine, nothing to de-buff.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3167122920

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3167126506

[Quillithe]

I think you're missing what I'm trying to say - let me try again.

Currently things like melee or pistols feel like they have specific tradeoffs. If your entire team were using them, you'd need to make a special effort to play around this

They certainly aren't bad, but a melee-only game would feel like a challenge run because there'd be situations they are very lacking in and mercs they aren't good on.

Same with something like trying to only use machine guns.

Limiting yourself to just sniper rifles wouldn't really feel like a challenge run at all. You wouldn't be losing out substantially in mobility, you wouldn't have a terribly hard time at long range, you don't need particular high stats on your mercs to use them well, etc.

And that doesn't really feel right for sniper rifles. That's the thing that I think feels off rather than them necessarily being too strong.

[uncle nick]

Sniper only run is only easy when playing First Blood.

In Higher difficulty, sniper mercs will take a lot more injury damage as the number of enemy scale up. One round of enemy 40mm tear gas to your snipers and they will lose some action points and require time to recover. Not exactly the most efficient use of sniper firepower. Just play in higher difficulty, there is no need to debuff the sniper rifle just for people who only play in First Blood.

[Quillithe]

Alright, I give up - I tried but you clearly aren't reading my posts.

[uncle nick]

Quillithe eredeti hozzászólása:

...Limiting yourself to just sniper rifles wouldn't really feel like a challenge run at all....

You made this generalised statement; but you do not qualify this with any examples. For example, did you complete Eagles Nest with snipers only? In which difficulty level?

[Quillithe]

uncle nick eredeti hozzászólása:

Quillithe eredeti hozzászólása:

...Limiting yourself to just sniper rifles wouldn't really feel like a challenge run at all....

You made this generalised statement; but you do not qualify this with any examples. For example, did you complete Eagles Nest with snipers only? In which difficulty level?

The fact you're asking this is just evidence you haven't read my posts. If you aren't going to actually respond to what I said, don't bother.

[uncle nick]

I play Battlefield 4. Snipers Class can only use Snipers. Other classes like Engineers, Support, medics and assault can use DMR but not sniper rifles. I know what you are saying.

BUT we are playing Jagged Alliance. This restriction does not apply to any other JA game in the past.

[Korgan Bloodaxe]

Why on earth would you want to nerf snipers, they can usually only shoot once per turn. They kill more often than not but a explosives guy, machine gunner, shot gunner even a dual pistol guy can kill multiple enemies in one turn. My melee guy can sometimes kill 4-5 in a turn.

What would you do half their damage? Then suddenly they are completely useless. They are fine as they are, having 1 or 2 snipers on your team plus machine gunner, melee, shotgun guy is way more fun anyways than boring slow 6 sniper teams.

Its a single player game not a competitive pvp game like call of duty and similar.

[SumFatGai]

Korgan Bloodaxe eredeti hozzászólása:

Why on earth would you want to nerf snipers, they can usually only shoot once per turn. They kill more often than not but a explosives guy, machine gunner, shot gunner even a dual pistol guy can kill multiple enemies in one turn. My melee guy can sometimes kill 4-5 in a turn.

What would you do half their damage? Then suddenly they are completely useless. They are fine as they are, having 1 or 2 snipers on your team plus machine gunner, melee, shotgun guy is way more fun anyways than boring slow 6 sniper teams.

Its a single player game not a competitive pvp game like call of duty and similar.

I dunno, that's what I said earlier and still no one has been able to respond.
Ignoring the fun factor, there are tons of better builds that are just straight up better than a sniper only team.

I think most players consider "slow and safe enemy kills" as OP, vs finishing the entire combat in just 1 or 2 turns with other builds. They probably feel that way because enemy AI tends to be very dumb and just rush headlong w/o cover towards the sniper from far away, enabling methodical pick offs.

Which again, still means this is NOT A PROBLEM with the weapon, but a problem with the enemy AI/equipment/etc.