Luigi vs Smiley?

[halcyan2]

If you time the Boss Blaubert vs Luigi battle at the same time as the Smiley interaction, will Luigi's side and Smiley be hostile towards each other? Or are they only hostile towards Boss Blaubert's side?

[SirHawk]

Why not trying out and see?

[Wolfsun]

Originally posted by SirHawk:

Why not trying out and see?

... because some players (@halcyan2) would rather have others play a game for them than play the game themselves.

[uncle nick]

Haha, probably will get the scenario where Luigi will double-cross you and side with Boss to kill you first. Smiley will be killed in the crossfire.

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by SirHawk:

Why not trying out and see?

Plenty of reasons:

#1. There are lots of combinations of in-game decisions and quest resolutions. Sometimes instead of trying every single combination it may make sense to ask others.

#2. Some people keep more saved game files of certain points than others. A lot of the time, it could be easy for some people to check something (because they have a convenient save point) and sometimes they don't have a convenient save point and it would take a lot of time to replay things.

#3. Some combinations of in-game decisions may involve repaying a bunch of battles. That takes time and can get repetitive (coming from someone who played the final 3 quest battles multiple multiple times to try out various endings).

#4. Furthermore, even if you do get to the Luigi/Smiley situation, you may need to play it out multiple times to see what happens each iteration. And so you get a limited sample size based on anecdotal evidence, which is why it is useful to ask other people about their experiences as well.

[SeriousCCIE]

I don't suppose the novelty of a new experience is something that inspires you?

Knowing all the permutations just makes what otherwise could be a still novel upon replayed experience... into a choose-your-own adventure paperback book where only self-restraint prevents you from reading head to know all the outcomes ahead of time. There's no enjoying the game when its distilled down into a process chart.

Or maybe you are making a guide?

For the record, I fhaven't freed smiley, but I already handled the Luigi/Blaubert situation, which unfolded much to my surprise when I informed them I wasn't getting involved.

Molly was upset with me, but she seems to know how to find someone to take care of her more immediate needs. I actually haven't gotten smiley yet, so I imagine he has some unique dialogue about how I approached the questline.

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by SeriousCCIE:

I don't suppose the novelty of a new experience is something that inspires you?

Knowing all the permutations just makes what otherwise could be a still novel upon replayed experience... into a choose-your-own adventure paperback book where only self-restraint prevents you from reading head to know all the outcomes ahead of time. There's no enjoying the game when its distilled down into a process chart.

Or maybe you are making a guide?

For the record, I fhaven't freed smiley, but I already handled the Luigi/Blaubert situation, which unfolded much to my surprise when I informed them I wasn't getting involved.

Molly was upset with me, but she seems to know how to find someone to take care of her more immediate needs. I actually haven't gotten smiley yet, so I imagine he has some unique dialogue about how I approached the questline.

There's an infinite number of new experiences. For any given person, they will find some subset of those new experiences to be inspiring and a large subset of those new experiences to not be interesting.

For me personally, I like the RPG aspect of the different mercenaries. For me, the most value to replaying the game is going through the whole game with different mercenaries, to see the different things they say.

I'm less interested in the equipment/guns. If there was a new gun added to the game, I wouldn't find it very inspiring trying out the new gun.

I'm less interested in artificial challenges. Some people might find it inspiring to try playing the game by only using explosive weapons. Or a melee only run. Or a run where they never capture a diamond mine. Or a run where they never train. Or a run where they never gain new perks. I don't find any of those inspiring.

I think the story is interesting and it's always intriguing exploring the different story/choice branches, and to what extent the designers thought through different possibilities (or didn't). And part of that involves testing things and figuring out which story points have an impact and which don't and documenting them. But that doesn't necessarily mean I have to test every permutation myself.

In short, different people have different ways of exploring the game. And what works for one person may or may not work for another person.

And yes, I have been making various guides and am working on more. And yes, the reason I asked this specific question was related to an article I was writing (about Mollie). The Luigi/Smiley thing is a minor point (only referenced in a sentence or two) but I would prefer to be accurate if possible. And when it comes to timing, if you waited to test everything out yourself first, it could take a verrrrry long time to actually publish something if you were such a purrfectionist!

[uncle nick]

The writer of the story has a very good understanding of spycraft and telling lies. He is most likely a good liar and probably could have been recruited by CIA in a different life if he wasn't a writer.

All the dialogue decision making display the classic motivation choices: idealogy, ego, reward or coersion. The story also is able to distinguish the difference between perception and perspective.

What you are doing when writing the guide is to reveal all the known outcomes; but people may wish to play the game according to what motivates them and not what ticks them off.

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by uncle nick:

The writer of the story has a very good understanding of spycraft and telling lies. He is most likely a good liar and probably could have been recruited by CIA in a different life if he wasn't a writer.

All the dialogue decision making display the classic motivation choices: idealogy, ego, reward or coersion. The story also is able to distinguish the difference between perception and what is perceived.

What you are doing when writing the guide is to reveal all the known outcomes; but people may wish to play the game according to what motivates them and not what ticks them off.

And player written guides are optional. No one is forced to read them.

It's like when people discuss spoilers in chat (when it is labeled spoilers).

Some people wish to play the game without spoilers and that is fine.

Some people wish to play the game with lots of spoilers and that is fine.

But what I find problematic here is when people who want to play the game without spoilers, get upset at other people who want to discuss spoilers, ask questions about spoilers, or write guides that include spoilers.

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Also, I have a lot of respect for the writers and makers of JA3 (and JA and JA2). But what is very common in games and very common for humans, is that they can't predict every single sequence the player may make, and that can sometimes lead to story or dialog inconsistencies (i.e. when they refer to a character or event that you don't know about yet because you did things in a non-standard way). It's not a criticism at all - you can't predict every permutation and even if you could, it wouldn't be worth the effort to prepare separate dialogues or sequences for every contingency. Some people enjoy exploring all the known outcomes and in doing so, identifying the logical inconsistencies in the edge cases.

Like for example, it's interesting (but totally understandable) that the ending for Pierre/Major depends on the in-game choice you make but it can be a little odd that if you recruit Pierre/Major and they die, that they can still have happy endings at the end of the game.

You can get nit picky like: If you kill Flay, then should there really be a wanted poster of Flay at the end sequence (for one of the ending slides)?

Another ending slide shows Fidel, Buns, and Ivan. If they are dead in the game, will they still show up in the ending slide? Probably. Is it worthwhile to test it? Probably not. That would be another case where I might try ask someone what their experience and result was. It's not about being lazy or not finding new experiences to be inspiring.

[uncle nick]

Newsflash! Many missions and ending slides are OPTIONAL!

The writers and game devs did not write or rate a 'perfect' ending. You do not get any global achievement for getting all the perfect ending slides. You can however for example, get the 'Lone Wolf' and 'Ironman' achievements by skipping 99% of the missions, no green diamond and no mines.

We, the players just made up in our own or collective minds: what is the 'perfect ending'.

Haha, i only have one suggestion for you: please indicate which missions are optional. It's not a major change, just a small fine tune.

When you are writing your guide that reveals the rewards, i think you need to indicate which missions are optional. People will read your guide, and will be misled into thinking, that some tasks will be too difficult. And so they will not attempt a particular achievement because they don't think they can complete a mission task. When in actual fact, the task is optional, and they do not need to complete it at all or get that perfect ending slide.

[halcyan2]

Yes, you are right that many missions/quests are optional.

The core missions that need to be completed are Major, Colonel, and Corazon Santiago. The President quest also needs to be completed (whether he is rescued or killed).

Landsbach is optional. It is possible that you don't get any Landsbach slides.

The Red Rabies quest is optional. However, if you skip it, you still get the default Red Rabies epidemic slides.

The Green Diamond is optional in that you don't need to get it. But if you don't get it, then the Legion gets it instead. And that results in the default Green Diamond ending (gets auctioned off and Emma is livid).

Pantagruel is optional. But it seems like the default bad ending is the brothel burning down. Not sure if it's possible to simply get skipped slides.

[uncle nick]

You do get the bad ending slides; BUT you still get the global achievement you were attempting to get. Your guide does not encourage people to go after different achievements, it puts people off going for achievements and putting some missions into the too hard basket, which was clearly not in the original spirit of the game.

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by uncle nick:

You do get the bad ending slides; BUT you still get the global achievement you were attempting to get. Your guide does not encourage people to go after different achievements, it puts people off going for achievements and putting some missions into the too hard basket, which was clearly not in the original spirit of the game.

Thanks for the feedback.

I had intended the guide to be an Ending guide more than an Achievement guide, but I suppose I could add some mentions of some relevant achievements and how you unlock them immediately (and don't need to wait until the end of the game, other than Proven Innocent, I think).

So in particular, Unlockdown, Apocalypse Later, Green Diamond, Diesel Power, and Love Cats get unlocked immediately when you meet the condition.

Not completely sure about the conditions for Saw It Coming. In the past there was some discussion about whether there was a condition for it or it was bugged causing it to not unlock.

One of the challenges with achievements is that it only gets unlocked once, so it becomes easy to forget (and hard to test) exactly WHEN the achievement gets triggered.

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by halcyan2:

If you time the Boss Blaubert vs Luigi battle at the same time as the Smiley interaction, will Luigi's side and Smiley be hostile towards each other? Or are they only hostile towards Boss Blaubert's side?

BTW: I loaded an old save and replayed some portions.

If you have Smiley and Luigi at Rimville at the same time, you have to resolve Smiley before Luigi.

If you want to side with Smiley, then both Boss Blaubert and Luigi both turn hostile against you and Smiley.

If you tell Smiley that Mollie made her choice, then Smiley goes home. And then you resolve the Boss Blaubert vs Luigi situation (choosing which side to help).

It doesn't seem like you can resolve Boss Blaubert vs Luigi BEFORE you resolve Smiley (if Smiley is already at Rimville). And in the Smiley vs Boss Blaubert fight, it doesn't seem like you can get Luigi to help Smiley and your mercs.

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Also, I finished and published my guide article:

JA3: A Trick to Keeping Mollie Alive

[halcyan2]

Originally posted by uncle nick:

You do get the bad ending slides; BUT you still get the global achievement you were attempting to get. Your guide does not encourage people to go after different achievements, it puts people off going for achievements and putting some missions into the too hard basket, which was clearly not in the original spirit of the game.

I updated my Ending guide with screenshots of the remaining endings.

Also, based on your feedback, I made it clearer that most of the quests are optional. And I made it clearer that most of the story-related achievements are unlocked immediately and don't require you to finish the game.