What does it mean "spiritual successor"?

[grimdarkness]

That's the problem with spiritual successors : they are successors in name only.
The problem with Jagged Alliance 3 is that, contrary to other ♥♥♥♥♥♥ titles like Flashback, Rage or Back in Action, is perceived as an official sequel, even if the devs are no more the late and rightfully lamented Sir-Tech, and even if 20+ years have passed.

It's about the same thing that happened to the XCOM franchise. The new games are very different from the originals. Technically superior undoubtely, but somewhat dumbed down.
The original XCOM let you command different bases, many aircrafts and dozens of soldiers.
Look at XCOM2 : no more aircrafts, just one big flying base, and way less soldiers. Also, smaller maps and a convoluted economy system.

The JA franchise evolution (or involution) won't be different. We already know maps are smaller and the inventory has been simplified. Now I wonder : what about vehicles, militia, interruptions, and how many more factors are going to be simplified, if not removed.

The feeling is, JA3 is following the XCOM pattern : overwatch and hunker down being only some of the things they have now in common.
The question is : do you prefer a game like JA2 or a game like XCOM 2? If the answer is JA2, you're not going to be necessarily disappointed, but maybe you should adjust your expectations. You want realism? You want a professional realistic AAA tactical game?

Well, ask yourself : would you consider XCOM2 a professional realistic tactical game?
Personally, I do, up to a point. That doesn't mean I prefer it to good 30 yrs ol' XCOM (and I don't). It's just a different game.

I believe the most important factor about JA3 will be its complexity in comparison with its predecessor's one. If the game will result to be a sort of dumbed down version of the original, then yes, i believe many people, including me, are going to be disappointed, spiritual successor or not.

[uncle nick]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=475446815

[Demo]

Very accurate comment showing how JA has now taken steps to be more like XCOM (and talking about more things than just CTH and inventory which I find the former to be settled, and the latter to be irrelevant, mostly)

Originally posted by grimdarkness:

It's about the same thing that happened to the XCOM franchise. The new games are very different from the originals. Technically superior undoubtely, but somewhat dumbed down.

Yeah dude, they switched the gameplay around to be considerably simpler, and while graphically its good, gameplay wise its kind of simple. WOTC remidies this to an extent but it's still very simple. Still only 3-4 tiers of weapons, very easy stuff.

Another good video I stumbled across (in Russian) is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsyoI4htk_o

it also talks about how there are new mechanics that are added to JA3 to make it not very similar to JA2, and changes a lot of things, maybe not for the better necessarily. Not hating, but just saying.
If anybody thinks I'm a troll or Rincewind is a troll or Godzilla is a troll or whoever, you guys should really start reading some of the comments, there's a LOT of people who feel the same way and actually have a in-depth understanding of gameplay mechanics that were in JA2 and which were not in things like the new XCOM series or this game apparently. Quite refreshing actually to read comment after comment saying exactly what I'm saying.

Helps me back up my existing opinion that a lot of people defending JA3 and its current feature list are not really being rational (maybe mods included...), and are only being mad because I'm trying to take their new toy away even though the new toy has lead paint on it and needs to get sent back to the factory (or something along those lines, metaphor isn't perfect).

A lot of people saying "just make JA2 with new graphics" a lot of people saying "just make 1.13 with new graphics", nobody is hating on 1.13 (unlike here lol). Video criticizes the grit system which makes the game too easy, video also talks about how they basically want the game to be rebalanced and the gameplay redesigned, same as I said. Informed fans know where the issues are.

edit: Actually what I think may have happened in JA3's development that resulted in the current situation is over-feedback-ing and over-development. What does that mean? Well imagine you're developing any product. And you come up with ideal or pefect, or maybe more than good enough aspect of that product, can be anything, can be creating the ideal tire on a car. And then the people in charge of R&D/development are like "no but, give us feedback, how can this be better, what's wrong with it", and you're like "but there's nothing wrong with it", or maybe "we shouldn't be looking at what's wrong with it, but be looking at adding new things to it to make it even better", but then you still are told "no but tell us what's wrong with it, tell us how we can make it better", and so what ends up happening, is a feature which was completely fine in the first place, now it's like scrutinized for no reason at all, unjustifiably, and now it gets replaced by something, ANYTHING which is different because the feedback is not real feedback, the feedback is coerced by the managers who keep trying to innovate on something which requires no innovation, on something which is already not only not broken, but on something which is as good as it's going to get and messing with it is only likely to create other problems. And this is what I think happened to JA3, they developed it for so long, and went through so many stages, they had a working perfectly good version initially, then kept iterating, thinking that any change, any iteration, is going to make that feature or aspect of JA3 even better, when it probably wouldn't. They assumed that any iteration that followed the original iteration would be better, when in fact, it wouldn't. They asked "what's wrong with it" too many times, and iterated themselves into something that may solve the problem with the last version of the feature, but has none of the original feature's upsides. Basically they found the 1% wrong with the last version, solved that 1%, but ignored the 99% right, and took the 99% right for granted, and took it for granted that the new iteration will have all of the upsides of the old version, when it really wouldn't.

[grimdarkness]

Originally posted by 1337:

And this is what I think happened to JA3, they developed it for so long, and went through so many stages, they had a working perfectly good version initially, then kept iterating, thinking that any change, any iteration, is going to make that feature or aspect of JA3 even better, when it probably wouldn't. They assumed that any iteration that followed the original iteration would be better, when in fact, it wouldn't. They asked "what's wrong with it" too many times, and iterated themselves into something that may solve the problem with the last version of the feature, but has none of the original feature's upsides. Basically they found the 1% wrong with the last version, solved that 1%, but ignored the 99% right, and took the 99% right for granted, and took it for granted that the new iteration will have all of the upsides of the old version, when it really wouldn't.

I believe the fact that the new XCOM titles had both critical and financial success is one of the main reasons HG made JA3 more similar to XCOM. IMHO, they're just taking a safe bet.
You can rightfully say that even good old JA2 was successful, but it's still a 20+ yrs old game, and devs are aware their main marketing target is the present players generation, and not some "middle aged dudes who have become emotionally invested in a fan made mod", like someone said.

Now, I'm a middle aged dude who really loved JA2, and especially its 1.13 mod, and if JA3 had been a copy of JA2 with better graphics, a new story, new characters and a new island, I would have been more than happy.
Problem is, this is a (I hate this term) "spiritual successor", and not a successor. Well, on my book, "spiritual" means "let's keep some general concepts and folklore and change the rest in order to modernize the franchise".
So we have mercs from the previous titles, but the mechanics have changed, and I'm afraid many things have been simplified for players that never played JA2 or other games that belong to a time where there werent't guides and hint lists and let's plays behind every Youtube corner.

JA2 at hardest difficulty was no walk in the park, and difficulty aside, a very complex game, part tactical part strategical part RPG. 1.13 made it even more complex and rich, and all this work took many years to make the game the gem we all know and love.
So, it's critical that JA3 will be moddable. This way even middle aged dudes like me will have the chance to play it on their terms.

I just hope they don't ♥♥♥♥ it too much.

[Demo]

Originally posted by grimdarkness:

I believe the fact that the new XCOM titles had both critical and financial success is one of the main reasons HG made JA3 more similar to XCOM. IMHO, they're just taking a safe bet.
You can rightfully say that even good old JA2 was successful, but it's still a 20+ yrs old game, and devs are aware their main marketing target is the present players generation, and not some "middle aged dudes who have become emotionally invested in a fan made mod", like someone said.

This may be the case. I get the feeling that Haemimont are fans of JA2 and of the franchise and genre because a lot of their games have clear elements of JA2, and they seem to speak with a lot of passion for the originals but who knows.
Maybe they are just very good liars, and they are very consciously compromising on JA2, even beyond what is necessary to make somewhat friendly to the general customer, and just making some kind of XCOM thing.
Or maybe the publisher is twisting their arm saying "hey, don't go full JA2, make it close to XCOM", and it's not up to them, and then they have to make do and do the best they can with the parameters set by the publisher. And maybe they'll be given more freedom on the second project if the first one does well (which doesn't even make sense, these are niche games, XCOM 2 did better than XCOM 1, and was way more complex than the first one, like nobody is fooling anybody, the core audience is the one that's buying this product, there is no mass appeal here).

[RetinaBurn]

The one dude talking to himself.

[uncle nick]

could be chatgpt bot posting to itself?

[Demo]

Originally posted by uncle nick:

could be chatgpt bot posting to itself?

Originally posted by RetinaBurn:

The one dude talking to himself.

I can assure you, I am not chatGPT nor the OP.
Sigh.

[Vunar]

Probably during the development meeting someone dropped the word "streamline" and that meant they want to dumb down the game to be playable on tablet or mobile.

[NYCPCGAMER]

Originally posted by grimdarkness:

That's the problem with spiritual successors : they are successors in name only.
The problem with Jagged Alliance 3 is that, contrary to other ♥♥♥♥♥♥ titles like Flashback, Rage or Back in Action, is perceived as an official sequel, even if the devs are no more the late and rightfully lamented Sir-Tech, and even if 20+ years have passed.

It's about the same thing that happened to the XCOM franchise. The new games are very different from the originals. Technically superior undoubtely, but somewhat dumbed down.
The original XCOM let you command different bases, many aircrafts and dozens of soldiers.
Look at XCOM2 : no more aircrafts, just one big flying base, and way less soldiers. Also, smaller maps and a convoluted economy system.

The JA franchise evolution (or involution) won't be different. We already know maps are smaller and the inventory has been simplified. Now I wonder : what about vehicles, militia, interruptions, and how many more factors are going to be simplified, if not removed.

The feeling is, JA3 is following the XCOM pattern : overwatch and hunker down being only some of the things they have now in common.
The question is : do you prefer a game like JA2 or a game like XCOM 2? If the answer is JA2, you're not going to be necessarily disappointed, but maybe you should adjust your expectations. You want realism? You want a professional realistic AAA tactical game?

Well, ask yourself : would you consider XCOM2 a professional realistic tactical game?
Personally, I do, up to a point. That doesn't mean I prefer it to good 30 yrs ol' XCOM (and I don't). It's just a different game.

I believe the most important factor about JA3 will be its complexity in comparison with its predecessor's one. If the game will result to be a sort of dumbed down version of the original, then yes, i believe many people, including me, are going to be disappointed, spiritual successor or not.

i think you meant "Devolution" not "involution". Not sure involution would be the word.

[LeoinFL]

that russian video s main gripe was that knives are too poweful which is balancing issue that can be adjusted

[LordBlade]

The new X-Com games are a different breed from the originals. Same general genre, but very different implementation.

The TRUE "spiritual successor" to the original X-Com games would be Xenonauts. Which is epic. And a sequel is in the works.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/223830/Xenonauts/

[MustangMR]

I'll wait till I play it to see if they dumbed it down any. Overall though, it's a lot more of a sequel to the series than a 'spiritual successor' because it has all the characters, all the guns, all the basic movement of the maps. It's JA3, but we'll have to wait to play it to see if it's been dumbed down and suffers from a move to 3D.

As to XCOM, yeah, the new stuff is totally different than XCOM:UFO Defense. That was the best of the series, but I did enjoy playing the new ones as well. I really hated the retro look of XCOM 2.

I've played Xenonauts too but didn't quite get the same feeling. Just kind of had a copy effect that didn't really work for me. There was an open source game UFO:AI that went 3D that was pretty good but got abandoned eventually. And then there was the UFO:Aftermath series that also was in 3D and played a bit like UFO Defense, but again, just didn't quite give the feel of a world war invasion.

[LeoinFL]

are you guys aware that original director of JA 1 and 2 was hired as writer for this one?